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Hey all,

A little while ago there was a thread in the marketplace about a Yusef Lateef Custom Tenor with a really high price tag. That was put up by me. After the thread got a little out of control it was time to take it down and get some more info on it. Here’s what I know about this saxophone:

- I bought from the Estate of Yusef Lateef through a music store called Gerry’s Music.
- Yusef had a custom Gloger Neck made for the horn, it’s whereabouts are unknown.
- Yusef had acquired the horn while on a tour or visit to France in 2012.
- The Manufacturer has not been responsive to my inquiries (I am using google translate so I don’t necessarily blame them)
- The Lateef Family has not responded to recent inquiries either.
- This horn was supposedly MADE for him, however lack of documentation from the family or manufacturer on this matter makes this just a story. This story was started by a visit to Roberto’s winds in NYC with a phone conversation between someone (no idea who they were in relation to the company) who works at Advences (supposedly) and Myself+Roberto.
- There are no pictures or records that he played this horn on.
- This horn has been my primary horn for about 3 years, replacing my 5 digit VI. It’s truly an incredibly well made instrument with depth and blows and resonates freely (overtones are killer on it). Doesn’t play like a Taiwanese Horn that’s for sure.
- It’s a fairly heavy Tenor. Maybe one of he heavier tenors I’ve played.
- I have documentation for its authenticity that it was the property of Yusef Lateefs.
- Roberto of Roberto’s Winds appraised this horn at 30,000, we all know it’s not worth THAT much. (MAYBE if the horn could be validated as a one off custom instrument made for him but I still think that might be a stretch.

So I am reaching out to you, the SOTW community for advice on this. Approximately How much is it worth as is? How much is it potentially worth? Suggestions on who to contact? Anything helps, even opinions and criticism, and I’m open to it all. Thanks everyone.

I will attach pictures of it when I get home later today.
 

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Given that it’s a recent Taiwanese horn made by a company that no one has heard of I’d think you’d be fortunate to get $1.5k - $2k for it.

Brand name players usually have a bunch of horns passing through their hands through out their career. Unless it was their main instrument that they used on significant recordings, I don’t see how the provenance in this case would add any extra value.
 

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Hey all,

A little while ago there was a thread in the marketplace about a Yusef Lateef Custom Tenor with a really high price tag. That was put up by me. After the thread got a little out of control it was time to take it down and get some more info on it. Here’s what I know about this saxophone:

- I bought from the Estate of Yusef Lateef through a music store called Gerry’s Music.
- Yusef had a custom Gloger Neck made for the horn, it’s whereabouts are unknown.
- Yusef had acquired the horn while on a tour or visit to France in 2012.
- The Manufacturer has not been responsive to my inquiries (I am using google translate so I don’t necessarily blame them)
- The Lateef Family has not responded to recent inquiries either.
- This horn was supposedly MADE for him, however lack of documentation from the family or manufacturer on this matter makes this just a story. This story was started by a visit to Roberto’s winds in NYC with a phone conversation between someone (no idea who they were in relation to the company) who works at Advences (supposedly) and Myself+Roberto.
- There are no pictures or records that he played this horn on.
- This horn has been my primary horn for about 3 years, replacing my 5 digit VI. It’s truly an incredibly well made instrument with depth and blows and resonates freely (overtones are killer on it). Doesn’t play like a Taiwanese Horn that’s for sure.
- It’s a fairly heavy Tenor. Maybe one of he heavier tenors I’ve played.
- I have documentation for its authenticity that it was the property of Yusef Lateefs.
- Roberto of Roberto’s Winds appraised this horn at 30,000, we all know it’s not worth THAT much. (MAYBE if the horn could be validated as a one off custom instrument made for him but I still think that might be a stretch.

So I am reaching out to you, the SOTW community for advice on this. Approximately How much is it worth as is? How much is it potentially worth? Suggestions on who to contact? Anything helps, even opinions and criticism, and I’m open to it all. Thanks everyone.

I will attach pictures of it when I get home later today.
Well, there are a lot of statements there. My immediate feedback:

1) It is highly unlikely that even Mr. Lateef had a saxophone "made for him". What is that even supposed to mean? That the stamping tools for the key cups, the mandrels for the bore, the hydroforming tools for forming the neck and bow and bell were all specially made and used just for that one instrument? I think not. In this day and age the most "custom" a saxophone would be, would be that it might have an unusual collection of options (like, imagine one of those sopranos that's keyed to high G; with the high G, but with no high F#; that would be the kind of thing I am talking about). Maybe a plating that was not offered standard, or some special engraving (considering it's mostly laser engraved using CNC machines, that's not saying much). So the term "made for so-and-so" really has no meaning in the context of mass production. It's like putting one of those little plaques on the dashboard of your Ford that says "Crafted for John Doe."

2) Just because Yusef Lateef owned a horn and played a few notes on it once, to check it out, doesn't mean he ever took it out of the case once he owned it. It's very easy to imagine him on a tour in France, worried about his main tenor, slipping into a music store and walking out with an inexpensive no name Taiwanese sax just to have with him in case that pesky issue with his Selmer crops up again.

3) He had a Gloger neck "made for it", but the neck seems to have disappeared. Again I don't know what that's supposed to mean. the horn in question is probably a close copy of a Selmer mark 6 or Super Action 80; models for which I am sure Gloger has well-used patterns - since the majority of saxophones made today are copies of these two instruments. So I am guessing "made for this horn" would actually mean ordering a neck from Gloger and having the tenon fitted just like you would in installing any neck to a horn.

4) But I fail to see what meaning there is in "he had a special neck for it but the neck has gone missing". How would the possible existence of a neck that isn't with the horn have any meaning to the horn now? I mean, I could put my Mexi-Conn for sale and point out that "I had a different set of pads for it, that I took out when I got the horn, but they are now missing". Would that help me sell it?

In sum, I think that even proven ownership by Mr. Lateef might be worth a couple hundred dollars additional over the going rate for a well made, good playing no name Taiwanese sax.
 

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It's great that you have the documentation that it was his horn, but I have to agree with others thus far that unfortunately it won't add much to the value of the horn. .

Couple notes:

- many Taiwanese horns are heavy. This is very common.

- I'm sure it plays great, but there are a lot of Taiwanese horns out there that play fabulous now a days. They truly have come a long way and many companies have exceptional horns.

- I saw the pictures on your other thread and it seems to be a model that this company still offers. I would bet a LOT of money that it was picked for Lateef, but definitely not made for him special.

- the resale value of this horn without his name would bring $1200 - $1500 approximately.

- with the letter of authenticity I can see you getting possibly $3k or so. But it would be tough to go higher.

The fact of the matter is that you have a good Taiwanese horn that was given to a good player that is not a household name. They we're of course giving him one hoping he would play it and endorse it and it would grow their brand. That didn't happen. So now you have a lightly used horn worth approximately what I stated above (in my opinion).

Best of luck.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

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Re: Yusef Lateef owned Advences “Vintage” Tenor

Since this is not in the for sale section we are allowed to offer opinions on price

In my opinion this is a horn that was given to Mr. Lateef but there is no proof that he ever used it. Many artists are given horns and never use them.

Unless you have pictures of Mr. Lateef playing this at a concert this is something that an enthusiast reseller of the “ brand “ (Made by someone else, and not the French reseller, in Taiwan) gave to Mr. Lateef in order to say Yusef Lateef plays on...gave him, was put away and laid forgotten and probably unused until his death.

Of course the people selling his stuff after his death had all the interest to represent this as his treasured possession but really all you have is a letter from people with a vested interest telling something completely unproven.

Roberto told you that this was worth $30,000, very well. How much did he offer?

I like when shops talk about value but the real value is what they would be prepared to pay. Did he want to buy it at all? If he did I would take the offer, whatever it is.
 

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Re: Yusef Lateef owned Advences “Vintage” Tenor

Roberto told you that tis was worth $30,000 very well. How much did he offer?
Sell it to Roberto for $10,000. You've then sold it for six times its value. Nice .

Roberto can flip it and make a nice dealer 200% mark up.

Win win.

But I agree, the provenance means very little in terms of added value. People will pay big for the horns Lateef recorded and/or toured with.
 

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Lipper,
You're probably talking about this :
http://www.cadencesmusic.com/instruments-neufs/advences-bronze-vintage/
I'm French and I've heard good things about those saxophones. You can send an email to Cadences Music Dijon FRANCE (below : "contactez-nous")
Hope it helps ;-)
Thanks for the actual information on these horns. Looks like although they are manufactured in Asia somewhere the Cadences 'atelier' in Paris does considerable work on them prior to selling. This is the key to the Asian horns and it makes much difference in the quality you receive on the user end. But this particular one really doesn't benefit from the alleged association with Mr. Lateef and should be valued at about half its retail price since its now used.
 

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Re: Yusef Lateef owned Advences “Vintage” Tenor

..Roberto can flip it and make a nice dealer 200% mark up.
Well, I seriously doubt he could and if he thought he could he would have made an offer that OP shouldn’t have refused.

I really hope that OP didn’t pay much for this because selling it will be female dog.

Maybe this could be a great episode for Pawn Stars?:whistle:
 

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Thanks for the actual information on these horns. Looks like although they are manufactured in Asia somewhere the Cadences 'atelier' in Paris does considerable work on them prior to selling. This is the key to the Asian horns and it makes much difference in the quality you receive on the user end. But this particular one really doesn't benefit from the alleged association with Mr. Lateef and should be valued at about half its retail price since its now used.
Cadences is a shop based in Dijon (a town in the east of France). But Advences is a brand distributed in France.
 

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So I have a VI tenor that Pete Christlieb used on a recording session recently where I got to sit there and watch and I snapped a couple of pics of him with my horn. I also have access to the song he recorded on my horn. How I ended up with my horn in that situation is a whole different story that I can tell another time. The point is - the fact that Pete recorded a song on that horn makes it cooler "to me," but I wouldn't really expect anyone to pay more for it even if I showed them the picture of Pete playing it and let them hear the song he used it for.
 

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Re: Yusef Lateef owned Advences “Vintage” Tenor

this phenomenon of instruments being sold as belonging to an artist is not quite so common on the jazz scene as it is in the Pop and Rock scene.

Also, not all Jazz recording musicians are “ legends” and the sale of their instruments are less than exciting.

Lateef certainly belongs to the legends, but it is not at all certain that all musicians of the past would all hold that kind of stature to grant a number of followers ready to shed some substantial cash for a piece of memorabilia, especially if the connection with the musician is as weak as in this case.

But is it what we are talking about here?

We are not even talking of a signed instrument (which may or may not have been ever played by Yusef Lateef but at the very least bears a signature, without any documentary proof in the form of a video or pictures even that would be just a story which one buys or not, quite literally ).

All we are talking about is an instrument that was in the house where the musician lived.

For all we know this may even have been sent to him to evaluate and then forgotten there! If the instrument was purchased by Mr. Lateef, is there a title anywhere? He would have declared his purchase on the taxes return.

Even the insurance would have asked to see a receipt if this had been stolen to assess ownership. If it was given as a present is there anything to show that? The shop or the reseller ( this horn wasn’t made in France) would have at the very least asked for a thank you letter and there would be pictures made.

The conclusion is that, for sure, this is a secondhand Taiwanese horn of a brand not even particularly famous or wanted. The only thing that separates this from being just any other horn is a piece of paper written by people whom had all the interest to enhance the story of this horn.

There is no signature on the horn or any pictures showing this was even ever played.

When you buy something you should also consider the fact that you may be the only person to see anything in what you are buying.

Anyway, to asses its possible value (or lack thereof ) bring this to a specialized auction house (like Bonhams https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22597/ ) they will tell you IF this instrument falls under their stringent criteria and qualifies for an auction and they will also asses its value based on its intrinsic and added value (if there is any) given that letter.
 

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Re: Yusef Lateef owned Advences “Vintage” Tenor

Yeah, not a lot of people shopping for horns at Bonhams, lol. Just put it up on eBay and be happy if you get over a grand.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I appreciate all the feedback and advice. These are all great reasons to keep it!
In all seriousness I was hoping to sell it and fund some family medical issues, obviously that looks like that’s off the table. Everything stated above makes sense from a buyers perspective, and I’ll be following some peoples suggestions to either find more info on it or an avenue to get a realistic appraisal. Feel free to continue dropping opinions or advice below.
Thanks All.
 

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Re: Yusef Lateef owned Advences “Vintage” Tenor

Actually, as far as I can tell, all auction houses ( from time to time) sell modern musical instruments from Jazz to Rock and whomever buys this things is not “ shopping” as such but collecting but they do have buyers.

https://www.christies.com/features/2009-April-roy-rogers-180-3.aspx
https://www.christies.com/features/Collecting-stories-Perry-Margouleff-9531-3.aspx

Lipper, Sorry to hear that you may have hoped to fund medical expenses with this because I really believe that your trust in this instrument may have based on an overly optimistic assessment ( either yours or someone else’s).

Very much more so because it was at the very least supported by a reputable shop which should have been way more conservative than it apparently was OR put their wallet where there mouth was making you a real offer (rather than flaunting figures ). Words are cheap .
 

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I appreciate all the feedback and advice. These are all great reasons to keep it!
In all seriousness I was hoping to sell it and fund some family medical issues, obviously that looks like that’s off the table. Everything stated above makes sense from a buyers perspective, and I’ll be following some peoples suggestions to either find more info on it or an avenue to get a realistic appraisal. Feel free to continue dropping opinions or advice below.
Thanks All.
If selling it is the objective, the best way to determine market value is to put it up for sale at an optimistic price, and accept whatever you get after an arbitrary time.

I wish you and your family well.
 

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Re: Yusef Lateef owned Advences “Vintage” Tenor

For all we know this may even have been sent to him to evaluate and then forgotten there! If the instrument was purchased by Mr. Lateef, is there a title anywhere? He would have declared his purchase on the taxes return.
It is timely to note how difficult getting a private citizen's tax returns can be, even with a subpoena. 😎
 

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Re: Yusef Lateef owned Advences “Vintage” Tenor

For all we know this may even have been sent to him to evaluate and then forgotten there! If the instrument was purchased by Mr. Lateef, is there a title anywhere? He would have declared his purchase on the taxes return.
It is timely to note how difficult getting a private citizen's tax returns can be, even with a subpoena. 😎
Declaring a purchase as a deduction is optional - the lack of such a declaration is inconclusive. Similarly, there is no legally registered title for instruments.
 

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Re: Yusef Lateef owned Advences “Vintage” Tenor

no, it not a car or a house, but there are invoices (at two ends) corresponding toa serial number and yes you don’t have to register an invoice but any professional would simply because it means claiming expenses (if you bought something).
It is timely to note how difficult getting a private citizen's tax returns can be, even with a subpoena. 😎
Indeed especially when a private citizen is a very public figure.
 
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