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YTS-82Z; B991; 'Crat 1 alto
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As I have related elsewhere, I moved from playing tenor in the community college continuing education Jazz Band class to the Concert Band, and have been finding it a great experience (too bad it will be likely shut down for a while, but that is also covered elsewhere).

Having only learned to read music fairly later in life, I still am a slow reader and often (enough) make errors.

Like when I play a D# instead of a Db. It has been known to happen.

So last week we're playing some piece and I guess I more than once played that D#. I played it fairly pp so few people could probably really have heard. I play most everything fairly softly, and range in volume mostly between p and ghosting. That's perhaps my most meaningful contribution to blending in with the band and not sticking out like a sore thumb: playing very softly.

At the end of the piece, the weird alto guy next to me (he is really weird) calls out to the director saying "somebody's been playing a D# instead of a Db here" and says he thinks it was one of the other altos (having already asked them if they were messing up, all the other altos had said no). I guess I wasn't playing all that softly.

So I then figure out it must have been me, and quietly tell him that, and also to shut the F up about it and not announce it to the entire band, as I am doing the best that I can (the alto had played a lot as a kid and was capable, though not great), etc. etc. (Heck, the band is open to all regardless of ability.). But I was quite pleasant about it, as even though I was embarrassed by what he did, I took it in stride and took it lightly, not getting upset and just joking about it. I didn't think any more about it as we moved to the next piece.

After the practice, I ran into the lead alto chatting with another alto . . . they were talking about the weird alto guy, and they were upset, really upset, at what he had done. They went on to tell me how what he did was completely improper, first asking the other altos who screwed up and then telling the entire band how someone was hitting a wrong note. Shoot, everyone hits a wrong note at least now and again, and lots of folks in this band hit lots of wrong notes . . . . Being new to the whole scene, I was unaware how inappropriate his calling me (however namelessly) out in front of the whole band was, for simply having made a mistake.

They seemed to take the matter much more seriously than I had. The more I thought about it, I came around to their way of thinking, to a degree. While clearly not that big of an issue overall, I would think it a generally bad idea if each member felt free to criticize anyone else in the middle of practice. And asking everyone "who messed up in this part" is probably not a great way to make friends or advance band cohesion.

Anyway, I didn't take it too seriously at first, and as far as my feelings go, that's fine. I still don't feel like making a big deal out of it. But I do think the lead alto is right to be concerned about behavior like that. Not the biggest deal in the world, and it's all over and done with and we've all moved on, but in other circumstances I expect blockhead moves like this could result in greater problems for a band or a section, as sometimes egos can get involved. (Thankfully, I have no illusions about my playing to feed my ego.)

So was the lead alto right to be pretty upset with the guy? It does seem pretty poor practice to announce to the entire band that someone hit a wrong note or two, especially in this type of open band where wrong notes, wrong timing and wrong dynamics happen often, until the performance of course where everyone is perfect.

In any case, there is now a big "C#" written above the staff in a few appropriate places. Won't be making that mistake again (until I do).
 

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I'm not in a situation like yours, other than that I am in a band where sometimes, someone will repeatedly make the same mistake. I am not an ***** about it, but I will point it out. Making the same mistake over and over means you are missing something. It's time to let you know, because the goal is for the music to sound right. I will also tell bandmates if they are out of tune (I do that considerably more often, but that really gets to me).

I hadn't realized it might bother people to have a recurring mistake pointed out. I certainly would want to be told if I was getting a part wrong - and I'm not the only one in the band who does it. We have a skilled guitarist with a good ear who will stop the song if there are consistent klunkers on his side of the stage.
 

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In general it's up to the conductor to point out these things when he or she feels it is necessary. Let it be known that our Director who has perfect pitch will on occasion point this out to me. Just keep in mind that every one misses a note now and then, especially in community bands. As time goes on you will miss fewer notes and when someone points it out not consider it an insult.
 

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Everyone plays wrong notes sometimes.

I would think the proper way to correct someone is not to call it out to the director, but solve the problem within the section. Directors are usually much too busy thinking about tuning, entrances, balance, and all those 'musical' things to be correcting individual notes.
 

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Conn NW II Soprano, NW I Alto, 10M Tenor, NW I C Melody & Allora Bari.
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Why not call attention to the problem so it can be fixed? Isn't that what rehearsal or practice is for?

In this case you knew who made the mistake but perhaps the person bringing attention to it didn't know who?

Blend with the band but don't be scarred to play out more. Make all the mistake now while everyone else is making mistakes so the director, hopefully, will help y'all with it.

Good luck!
 

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YTS-82Z; B991; 'Crat 1 alto
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The issue the lead alto (and I) had was not in the guy pointing out a mistake, but in how he did it.

I didn’t realize it was likely me until he pointed it out (to the entire band) and I assumed it was most likely me.

It was only twice this happened (the D#) not every time.
 

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Very bad orchestra etiquette.

Proper way is for section lead to have a quiet word with the person who makes a repeated mistake. If it's more obvious then the conductor provides the correction. Not some other section member.

It generally would be permissible, in an amateur group, for the other section member to raise a hand and ask if the saxophones could go over the passage in question.

A small band is different, depending on how much of a strong-bandleader model is followed.
 

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YTS-82Z; B991; 'Crat 1 alto
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
In general it's up to the conductor to point out these things when he or she feels it is necessary. Let it be known that our Director who has perfect pitch will on occasion point this out to me. Just keep in mind that every one misses a note now and then, especially in community bands. As time goes on you will miss fewer notes and when someone points it out not consider it an insult.
It was not considered an insult. At most it was a brief embarrassment. I don't think there was any mention of anything close to a feeling of being insulted. I agree that everyone misses a note now and then, and I believe I mentioned that in the OP.

Everyone plays wrong notes sometimes.

I would think the proper way to correct someone is not to call it out to the director, but solve the problem within the section. Directors are usually much too busy thinking about tuning, entrances, balance, and all those 'musical' things to be correcting individual notes.
That is exactly what I think the lead alto was upset about, that this should not have been called out at the end of the tune to the director and entire 70 person band. This could and should have been addressed within the section was his thought, and I agree.
 

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Its out of order in a community band, its supposed to be inclusive and fun, and someone with a thinner skin might have decided they had had enough and not to come back.

We all make mistakes, most of us realise ourselves when we screw up and try to learn from that not to do it again (or as often). If someone in a section is repeatedly screwing up and not doing anything about it then its fine for one of the section members to mention it on the QT and to offer some advice to help the section improve, but public name and shame as a first option firstly makes the person doing that look like a total dick, and more importantly it might drive away an otherwise enthusiastic band participant.
 

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Sounds like the "weird alto guy" was doing the job of the lead alto. Like has been mentioned, directors generally don't want to take time to correct individual notes - that's what personal practice and, to a lesser extent, the section leader is for. As a lead alto player, I've never called-out individuals by name but, if there's an issue in the sax section that I can't get to the bottom of, I'll bring it to the director's attention: "Excuse me, the sax section is having a problem with the phrase starting in measure 53," or "The sax's chord at measure 13 doesn't sound right."

Of course, that doesn't occur once someone owns-up to the mistake. No need to take it further at that point.
 

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A good band director knows who is playing wrong notes and it is up to him/her to make any and all corrections. I'm thinking since this is a community band the director is not looking to crush anyone's spirit by calling them out. However, "weird alto guy" should have been chastised by the director and put in his place. If he becomes more of a problem, clue him in to the fact that if he was really any good he'd be playing at Lincoln Center, not in a community band.
 

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When I was playing in the local community band and I played a wrong note even though I always played PP the person sitting next to me would point out that the D# is Db usually at the end of the piece or if the conductor stopped to go over a challenging part at which point I would take the opportunity to mark my score, always very friendly,
 

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As a lead alto player, I've never called-out individuals by name but, if there's an issue in the sax section that I can't get to the bottom of, I'll bring it to the director's attention: "Excuse me, the sax section is having a problem with the phrase starting in measure 53," or "The sax's chord at measure 13 doesn't sound right."

Of course, that doesn't occur once someone owns-up to the mistake. No need to take it further at that point.
Your perspective is shared in "The Inner Game of Music", and it is one that I, too, like to employ. Rather than explicitly call out a mistake, encourage everyone to listen and correct. "Intonation seems a little dicey in measure 13" is spot on.
 

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This particular problem would never happen if Db were banished and only C# were permitted notation. Why is that such a slysdexic note for me? I have circled many a Db!
You've got to work past the Db issues so you won't be thrown off by a B# or Fb. :) We've been working on a piece by Hindemith (sadly, not to be performed due to concert cancellation) with passages such as four triplets, played in two beats, with accidentals on nine of the 12 total notes. Some composers just don't place a lot of weight on conventional notions of "playability."
 

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thrown off by a B# or Fb. :)
I have some easy-to-intermediate pieces in G (Niehaus, maybe?) that notate E# in a chromatic ascent, preferable I suppose to two Fs: F-nat then F#.
I understand it, I can learn it (starting the second time I see it), but it looks whacky.
More than a little of this in Donna Lee (tenor) which I can't possibly sight read except for the general line, had to memorize each phrase.
 

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Truth is, most of it is just fragments of scales and arpeggios. Learn these in all 12 keys and you'll just need to figure out which one it is. I am pretty sure that in the rehearsal band I'm in I've marked a part something like "F# major" over a complicated passage with a bunch of sharps.
 

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Well when you use the term "weird alto guy" that would imply he has other behavior that seems strange or uncomfortable to you. Not trying to make a diagnosis from a 1000 miles away here but the behavior you describe - not understanding the social queues (calling someone out in front of a lot of people) or context of how they fit in (not realizing it's really the section leader or director's responsibility to correct the issue) would be somewhat consistent with someone who has mild Asperger's. So, yeah, the guy may just be a jerk but he may also have a real issue of some type.
 
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