[Michael_A]

Hi guys,
couple of weeks ago I asked some info about Dukoff (transparent) mouthpiece that I didn't use for many years, because it didn't fit the cork made for Berg that was my workhorse.
The cork aged and needs some layers of tape for Berg... suddenly I decided to try Dukoff. It is perfect for it now. But after Berg it requires different adjustments for the reeds (old and new) to make it hardly playable for me...
So put it back to the drawer...

Recently, I found in another drawer Yamaha 4C piece that came with my YAS-62 in 1990.
All my hard reeds became easy playable. First I thought I will use it for mouthpiece playing exercise.

But when tried it on sax, I could not believe... My question is below ... I copied my text from the B&I TOTM where I shared the "incident".
I checked the web and some very old but informative link about Yamaha pieces on SOTW (old thread).

Could you please to "calm down" my excitement by real life info. And also include the answer about difference of 4C and 4C Custom.

HERE is my situation:

I am currently in a big frustration about my setup... 2 weeks ago eventually I grabed my original never used from 1990 Yamaha 4C mouthpiece. And rediscovered the process of getting the sound. It's absolutely easy playing piece with any hard to play reed using my Berg 95 2. I am sure during years I developed not good things and realize now that it was because of not suitable MP.
It is different world. I am trying to understand how $30 piece could fit me better than FAMOUS and surely perfect MP that I loved but always had hassle with suitable reed and adjustment.
I am still cannot believe that any new 2.5 reed just with minimal sides adjustments let me play without concentrating on reed, piece, hell or other . I even set an appointment in the local store for Saturday and want to try V1 neck after getting such an improvement with the original Yamaha piece.

For V1 neck, I read super thread on SOTW and got the answer for my question about it.

So if it will do something for me I will put the money without hesitation.

Also, this piece makes sax tuned without my efforts or concentration. And Yamaha saying that 4C is for beginners and PROFESSIONALS . I don't think that any Pro touched this. But who knows... There is 4C Custom that I may try.
Never thought about setup stuff. Just knew that I have very good MP....

Sorry, for such a long post...
Thanks.

 

[saxoclese]

Yamaha 4C mouthpieces are designed to be more forgiving and easier to play for players just starting out whose embouchures are still developing. The smaller tip opening and slightly wider rails are designed with that in mind. That is not to say they don't play well for players at any level. They are just well designed and well balanced mouthpieces for more of a "classical" concept of sound. What the trade off is between the 4C and more "professional model" mouthpieces is they lack the dynamic range and projection and the responsiveness and flexibility (and the price) of the "professional mouthpieces".

 

[Michael_A]

Yamaha 4C mouthpieces are designed to be more forgiving and easier to play for players just starting out whose embouchures are still developing. The smaller tip opening and slightly wider rails are designed with that in mind. That is not to say they don't play well for players at any level. They are just well designed and well balanced mouthpieces for more of a "classical" concept of sound. What the trade off is between the 4C and more "professional model" mouthpieces is they lack the dynamic range and projection and the responsiveness and flexibility (and the price) of the "professional mouthpieces".

First, thank you very much for the definitive answer to the question.

Do you familiar with Yamaha Custom pieces? The retail price in the store is about 4x more for Custom vs a standard (Standard $33, Custom $120 in Canada).
Is it really 4x overall improvement?

 

[Michael_A]

here what I found on custom
https://www.sax.co.uk/yamaha-custom-ebonite-mouthpiece-alto-saxophone.ir

probably your answer will be that it's me who has to "taste" it

could you please check my sound on 4C. Posted yesterday on B&I TOTM... looks like people like it...
there are 2 files in the folder... if you would check, click pls ballad one...

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ar0t68kb42Tx322uqzugmULDmTqj?e=4TzXtb

 

[Aquarian]

I think in the practice room or living room, it can be a tendency to play "mezzo" the whole time, between mp and mf. So you won't find the limits of the 4C that would affect a high level professional.

I think it's more important to play what you like rather than what is "better", and mouthpieces suffer from diminishing returns like anything - a mouthpiece 4x as expensive might be 1.5x as good. A mouthpiece 8x as expensive might be 2x as good... if you like it!

I think the midrange mouthpieces, Meyers, Vandoren pieces, and so on, you are paying for a better (or specific) sound but not necessarily playability. I have an Otto Link and a D'Addario Select Jazz, and both can sound great but aren't always easy to play. The high end custom pieces are made to a higher spec and usually test played, and often are built to be more friendly (I know Philtones are made to be "freeblowing", and can vouch for the easy to play character of the Orion I have, as well as the excellent sound it has - but it's my most expensive mouthpiece, though it is worth it for me).

Definitely play test a Yamaha CM, and if possible in more than one tip opening. I don't know how they are but they may be harder to play, or may be just as easy and project better and perform better at extreme dynamic ranges. It's no use having a mouthpiece that sounds good if it only sounds good when you play it juuust right. Go with what plays well for you.

Remember that many great players used Brilhart ebolin pieces, which are made of resin *cough*plastic*cough* and for a while could be gotten quite cheaply. Brilhart himself went on to design the Rico Graftonite and Metalite, which are deemed cheap by many but which have a huge cult following, at least the Metalite.

 

[Michael_A]

I think in the practice room or living room, it can be a tendency to play "mezzo" the whole time, between mp and mf. So you won't find the limits of the 4C that would affect a high level professional.

I think it's more important to play what you like rather than what is "better", and mouthpieces suffer from diminishing returns like anything - a mouthpiece 4x as expensive might be 1.5x as good. A mouthpiece 8x as expensive might be 2x as good... if you like it!

I think the midrange mouthpieces, Meyers, Vandoren pieces, and so on, you are paying for a better (or specific) sound but not necessarily playability. I have an Otto Link and a D'Addario Select Jazz, and both can sound great but aren't always easy to play. The high end custom pieces are made to a higher spec and usually test played, and often are built to be more friendly (I know Philtones are made to be "freeblowing", and can vouch for the easy to play character of the Orion I have, as well as the excellent sound it has - but it's my most expensive mouthpiece, though it is worth it for me).

Definitely play test a Yamaha CM, and if possible in more than one tip opening. I don't know how they are but they may be harder to play, or may be just as easy and project better and perform better at extreme dynamic ranges. It's no use having a mouthpiece that sounds good if it only sounds good when you play it juuust right. Go with what plays well for you.

Remember that many great players used Brilhart ebolin pieces, which are made of resin *cough*plastic*cough* and for a while could be gotten quite cheaply. Brilhart himself went on to design the Rico Graftonite and Metalite, which are deemed cheap by many but which have a huge cult following, at least the Metalite.

Mr. Aquarian, I appreciate your time for sharing the knowledge and important for me general thoughts related to MP.
Not faraway from my thread I found another one, where OP asked about 4C and 5C, then at the end of the discussion there is the link to another old thread but discussing more CMs.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?48072-Opinion-on-Yamaha-CUSTOM-mouthpieces

Now, after reading opinions in the later thread, and after your general advises (you mentioned that did not touch CMs) I changed a bit my plan.

During my scheduled "voyage" to the shop for testing V1 neck this Saturday I will try 5CM, 6CM and 7CM prior to move to neck testing.

4CM is not in stock right now (may be it's even better ). Big task for one "session". Then with a new neck I will try my Berg 95 S2.
Who knows may be it will give me something interesting. I will not probably able to test my Dukoff 7D, since it doesn't fit to a cork for Yamaha. Berg is OK.

Thanks again!

 

[dexdex]

I do have an alto Yamaha 7C mouthpiece as a backup to my regular Meyer 7M. It lacks a bit the ability to shout and project, but is a perfect does it all mp when no big volume is needed. I play it with a Fiberreed Carbon, and I get jokes about having a reed more expensive than the mouthpiece....

 

[Michael_A]

I do have an alto Yamaha 7C mouthpiece as a backup to my regular Meyer 7M. It lacks a bit the ability to shout and project, but is a perfect does it all mp when no big volume is needed. I play it with a Fiberreed Carbon, and I get jokes about having a reed more expensive than the mouthpiece....

Another encouraging answer . BTW it is 7C not CM?

Thanks.

 

[dexdex]

Another encouraging answer . BTW it is 7C not CM?

Thanks.

Yes, the piece of plastic you get for 25€.

I originally bought it to "relearn" my alto embouchure with a "safe" mouthpiece after messing around with more open smoothjazz pieces (Dukoff, Jumbo Java, Warburton, Beechler, Rico Metalite, ....). I also have a 6C still in the box. Would we be neighbours, you could just come and pick it up.

 

[Michael_A]

Yes, the piece of plastic you get for 25€.

I originally bought it to "relearn" my alto embouchure with a "safe" mouthpiece after messing around with more open smoothjazz pieces (Dukoff, Jumbo Java, Warburton, Beechler, Rico Metalite, ....). I also have a 6C still in the box. Would we be neighbours, you could just come and pick it up.

ok it's just C. It is 35 bucks (Canadian ) here... But I am going to try CM stuff. People saying it is different thingy. and it cost $115 Canadian tax in. Should be 3 times better than C.
What is clear - the mouthpiece is not the table that you select for beauty and it is a static forever stuff. What can I do if cheap MP is completely better for me without any adjustment.
So I hope that I can find something in CM range and will put my Berg aside. As mentioned I am going to try V1 neck too. That may help to make Berg playable like Yamaha.
All this story is a huge experiment. Sure pro guys know what they looking for and getting it.

 

[dexdex]

As far as I know, the C is mostly a machine made piece of injected plastic, whereas the CM is made a more traditional way, machined from some kind of hard rubber. I never played one, but seen it at a friend’s home on his Custom alto.

 

[Michael_A]

As far as I know, the C is mostly a machine made piece of injected plastic, whereas the CM is made a more traditional way, machined from some kind of hard rubber. I never played one, but seen it at a friend's home on his Custom alto.

Thanks for another piece of info.
Now I will try 5,6,7 C and 5,6,7 CM. Will be interesting if I would find any difference. Then I will select the best and will try V1 neck. This is the final plan .

 

[Michael_A]

little update... may be not so interesting for many but just for the sake of continuing my 4C "discovery" and may be for somebody who will fall in this type of situation with Yamaha pieces.
So, in preparation for tomorrows' "big event" in my sax life - tests of Yamaha mouthpieces and great V1 neck, I went back and forth with Yamaha 4C from Jurassic park drawer and my beloved Berg.
I used 2 sets of reeds, 2 weeks old 2.5 well adjusted for Berg (95 S2 SMS) and 1 week old 2.5 with a minimal adjustment for Yamaha 4C.

Adjusted for Berg reeds are lovely and absolutely easy playable and sound well on 4C.
Fresh, with minimal adjustment playing even better, with a little pleasant effort.
During 2 hours playing. Adjusted for Berg reeds started to shine up (on Berg) and I started to feel that Yamaha becomes a bit of a joke...
What is good about 4C that it not require any warm up. Just plays.

Minimally adjusted reeds very difficult to play on Berg. Sure Yamaha is just 4C.

So I guess with good sets of reeds for tomorrows' test I will find something. I expect that 7C will do a good job for me with adjusted reeds.
Then, may be V1 neck will turn my sax world upside down ...

May be it's all an illusion... I really don't want to fall in "addiction" with MP abstraction journey. Worst case scenario, I will not buy anything.
But if I will find a real VALUE, I will buy the neck and one CM and may be one more C of a good number.

Thanks again to all for sharing the info, it made me more prepared for testing MPs.

 

[Michael_A]

Was in the store.
Checked 5,6,7 CMs (custom). Strangely, all 3 were out of tune for me (mid and upper register huge gaps).

By knowing that 4C was "extremely" easy in tune after Berg. I checked out 6C and 7C.
They were good. So I grabbed 7C for $33 ... Then tested V1 neck and took it too... Liked it.
Didn't even asked about their return policy. Played a bit today. Not really sure now. I guess it's normal.

Will play tomorrow couple of hours and will contact the store if I'll not feel full satisfaction and desire to keep this "goose".

Thanks to all for helpful info.

 

[J-Moen]

Was in the store.
Checked 5,6,7 CMs (custom). Strangely, all 3 were out of tune for me (mid and upper register huge gaps).

By knowing that 4C was "extremely" easy in tune after Berg. I checked out 6C and 7C.
They were good. So I grabbed 7C for $33 ... Then tested V1 neck and took it too... Liked it.
Didn't even asked about their return policy. Played a bit today. Not really sure now. I guess it's normal.

Will play tomorrow couple of hours and will contact the store if I'll not feel full satisfaction and desire to keep this "goose".

Thanks to all for helpful info.

Congrats! hope you enjoy the new gear!

 

[Michael_A]

Congrats! hope you enjoy the new gear!

Thx!