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As stated in another thread, I purchased one of the last B&S CJS from WWBW. There is good news and bad news. The good news is the sax came very quickly. Upon initial inspection, the sax looked beautiful!!! :) I then decided, based on some the experiences here, to inspect the horn more closely.

Then, I saw it. On the back side (3/4 way around) there is rough section about 2 - 3 inches long and about 1/2 inch wide, running the up and down the bell. It is a section of small rough feeling dots. :x :evil:

I am not sure if it is a manufacturing defect (B stock) or some sort of corrosion?? :(

Any suggestions? Otherwise the horn is absolutely beautiful!! Is this something that I should first attempt to "clean". Should I call WWBW and see what they will do? Maybe, they will try to make amens in some way? Should I send it back or suck it up?

I guess $1199 is still a good price for the sax, defect and all??
 

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"Came quickly" before you could change your mind. If it plays good and you feel that you got a good price why bother sending it back. The fact that these lesser makes of saxophones have no quality control is how they keep the prices down. I can kind of imagine what B&S stands for. Beijing and Shanghai?
 

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whaler said:
"Came quickly" before you could change your mind. If it plays good and you feel that you got a good price why bother sending it back. The fact that these lesser makes of saxophones have no quality control is how they keep the prices down. I can kind of imagine what B&S stands for. Beijing and Shanghai?
It is very well-known on this forum that the CJS horns are B&S stencils that were made in Germany. It says so on the horn.

Nolzman, if you decide to keep the horn and don't mind dickering, it may be worth your while to try to negotiate a price reduction from WWBW. Of course, don't tell them you've decided to keep the horn until negotiations are completed ;). I believe I've read elsewhere on the forum that buyers are sometimes successful with this. These instances would have been under previous ownership though, so don't know whether you'll be successful.
 

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whaler said:
The fact that these lesser makes of saxophones have no quality control is how they keep the prices down. I can kind of imagine what B&S stands for. Beijing and Shanghai?
Better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to type the first thing that comes into your head and remove all doubt:


Blechblas und SignalInstrumentenFabrik. A division of JA Music and a very close relative of Keilwerth..perhaps you have heard of them?


Not very Chinese sounding really, and one of the more respected brass manufacturers who recently got out of sax manufacturing just as word of their outstanding horns was starting to spread.


Anyway, if it was not sold as B stock I would try for a discount. At this stage I doubt WWBW have any A grade horns they can replace it with as they stopped making them what, 3 years or so ago now? I think owners are a lot more sensitive about every little blemish...we see everything, whereas all anyone else cares about is can you play it.
 

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Damned right. B & S is a quality, German maker of instruments, and the B & S Saxophones are no exception.

You got a very good deal on this fine horn, but if it wasn't advertised as B stock (remember in my PM to you, I warned you about WWBW and their history of doing this, among other things), then I would phone them to say you want a reduction for the slight finish imperfection. Either a bit of money off the horn, or a store credit that you can use ASAP (before they go tips up for the final count!;)).

It wouldn't bother me were it my horn purchase (as long as I didn't pay full price), but they have been doing this a lot, and don't need to get away with this shabby practice.

DON'T send it back if it plays well, and you are otherwise happy with it. You got it for a very good price, and it is an otherwise fine horn.
 

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If it was sold as B stock then be happy with the horn and be happy that the blemishes weren't any worse. Otherwise call them up and tell them the horn has finish imperfections. They should be able to offer you some store credit.

No matter how it turns out you are not going to find a better horn for $1200 -- guaranteed!
 

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Ooh? German made. That changes everything. More than likely it is assembled in Germany, but for that price, if it plays ok, it's a good deal.
 

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No, it is made in germany, by germans, by hand, just like selmers are made in France by the french (only perhaps with more care based on recent tales of selmer set ups), from start to finish, Its expensive to do...thats why they stopped.

Dont confuse B&S with Kohlert who are now making cheaper horns in asia;), B&S were made in Markneukirchen, the same town as Keilwerth, and the same corner of the world as Kohlert and Amati, and most of the craftsmen were snapped up by Keilwerth apparently.

So please, if you dont know what you are talking about, try not to speculate. Maybe you should track one down, they are really nice horns, with a bit of a vintage tone and feel to them. Top quality design and construction too, although when they stopped production obviously deals were done to recoup some money on the cosmetically blemished horns. But as long as you know its B stock and it still plays great (for a lot less money), then whats the harm.
 

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Canadiain said:
No, it is made in germany, by germans, by hand, just like selmers are made in France by the french, from start to finish, Its expensive to do...thats why they stopped.

Dont confuse B&S with Kohlert who are now making cheaper horns in asia;), B&S were actually in the same town as Kohlert, and the same corner of the world as Keilwerth, and Amati, and most of the craftsmen were snapped up by Keilwerth apparently.

So please, if you dont know what you are talking about, try not to speculate. Maybe you should track one down, they are really nice horns, with a bit of a vintage tone and feel to them. Top quality design and construction too, although when they stopped production obviously deals were done to recoup some money on the cosmetically blemished horns. But as long as you know its B stock and it still plays great (for a lot less money), then whats the harm.

very well said...


:)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Well... here is the update. When I bought the horn I specifically asked if it was B stock or used, and was assured it was not. I also asked them to pick out the best one and they assured me they did.

So, today I called WWBW and complained to my sales guy about the blemish. I explained the sequence of events above. He said he would get back with me.

He called me back and gave me three options: 1. I could return the horn for a full refind, 2. I could return the horn and they could send one of the other two they have left, or 3. They could give me a $150 credit on my card. :)

The sales guy once again stated that in his opinion I got the best of the three horns. He described some of the discoloration the other horns had. So I, of course, took the $150 credit and will keep the sax. This means I paid $1049 walk out for a "new" B&S Chicago Jazz Series horn.

The blemish is somewhat significant, but it is on the back third of the sax bell on the left hand side. You cannot see it while playing or facing the key side. The way I see it, I got a great horn, for a great price, that will eventually get all kinds of other wear anyway.

I do plan on taking to a local repair shop had have them check it out just to sure, since my son will not getting it until Christmas. I also have 45 days to return it if I wish. Overall, I am very happy with the experience from WWBW. Especially, since this was a horn from the store (floor), not the warehouse.

Thanks for all the advice, especially SAXISMYAXE, in my PM's. All this research makes me want to take up playing. :)
 

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whaler said:
Ooh? German made. That changes everything. More than likely it is assembled in Germany, but for that price, if it plays ok, it's a good deal.
Just to set you straight, go to the B&S topic in Misc. Manufacturers.

You have no idea what you are writing about. These horns are some of the most beautifully built instruments I have ever seen. It is actually a small tragedy that their marketing was not very good, and that they could not compete with Asian manufacturers with respect to cost.

Anyone who gets one of these for the prices that they are going for now days, is a VERY fortunate player (provided of course that you like the horn).
 

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Discussion Starter #13
By the way, I read somewhere on the board where someone did not like the B&S horns because they were "light", and they preferred a heavy horn. Well... I am no expert, but the CJS I bought feels quite stout. The metal thickness is substantial. Maybe it has to do with the Earthtone color.

Any B&S owners want to comment on how the build of the CJS like horns compare to comparable horns from other makers?
 

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Canadiain said:
B&S were made in Markneukirchen, the same town as Keilwerth,
Just to keep SOTW accurate, B&S were indeed made in Markneukirchen, but Keilwerth were not. Before WWII, Keilwerth were in Kraslice/Graslitz (Czech/German spellings) in Czechoslovakia. After WWII they moved to Nauheim, W.Germany. Kohlert were also in Kraslice before the War.

In communist E.Germany, the nationalised company which swallowed up Markneukirchen instrument-makers such as Adler and G.H.Huller was called Blechblas-und-Signalinstrumentenfabrik. In communist Czechoslovakia, the former Keilwerth factory became part of the Amati conglomerate.

Markneukirchen and Kraslice are close to one another, but B&S and Keilwerth horns are really not that closely related: the pre-war horns by Keilwerth in Kraslice, and Huller in Markneukirchen, are very different from one another, and B&S developed a Huller, not a Keilwerth inheritance.

I base this on some fairly obsessive collecting and research, and I post it from time to time to keep the record straight.

That said, B&S instruments do not need to claim some kind of Keilwerth link to be respectable: they are excellent in their own right and, as it says on the modern horns, hand made in Germany.
 

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Sorry, its good to know someone has figured the details out...there is a lot of confusion and interbreeding I suspect

I was confused by this:
http://www.markneukirchen.de/engl/wirtsch/musikinstr-herstell/index.php
which had a link to this
http://www.markneukirchen.de/engl/wirtsch/musikinstr-herstell/holzblas.php
which has a link to this
http://www.schreiber-keilwerth.com/englisch/general/home_schreiber.htm, who are Kielwerths parent, and by Petes comments on the Saxpics project that Richard (not Julius) Kielworth set up there...

Anyway, in canadian terms 20miles is practically next door, and in mechanical terms I dont know who is rippping who off with regard to the G# nostick mechanism...they seem obviously related to each other in some way. Was it Kohler or Kohlert who were also based there?
 

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Nolzman said:
By the way, I read somewhere on the board where someone did not like the B&S horns because they were "light", and they preferred a heavy horn. Well... I am no expert, but the CJS I bought feels quite stout. The metal thickness is substantial. Maybe it has to do with the Earthtone color.

Any B&S owners want to comment on how the build of the CJS like horns compare to comparable horns from other makers?
Yes. I would not describe them as light. In fact, I'd describe them as heavy, and they weight a lot, too ;). Or at least that's my impression. I've never actually put any of my horns on a scale, but definitely the B&S/CJS is more like a tank than a feather in the hands.
 

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The body is very sturdy but the bell is fairly light. They did that on purpose.

With your $150 discount, I think you got a screaming good deal.

I was just playing my B&S Allora tenor today. It has a really nice focused sound to it, dark, but with edge. It plays like a cross between a Selmer and a Keilwerth. And the build quality is very good. My repairman really liked it when he played it.

You are wise to have it regulated; even though it is new it likely needs an adjustment to play in top form.
 

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Every single instrument I have ordered from WWBW needed adjustments. Their so called "setup" means checking for dangling parts, perhaps.
 
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