Why do Keilwerths have such poor resale value?

25879 Views 184 Replies 53 Participants Last post by heath, Nov 3, 2007

J.Max

Discussion Starter · Jul 20, 2007

It's pretty unbelievable, but I've noticed that Keilwerths (and especially Buffet Expressions and SX-90 alto) seem to have poor resale value. Why? They're great horns...

1 - 20 of 185 Posts

heath

· #2 · Jul 20, 2007

I finally did end up selling mine on Ebay yesterday.

A tenor in mint condition. SX90 gold lacquer. 3 months old.

Purchased new $2495 from kessler, Sold on ebay and after paypal and ebay fees and some additional shipping cost I netted about $1500....that's a loss of $1000 on a horn without a scratch.

All the JK's from the soprano to the tenors have horrible resale value. The Baris seem to do ok, but I'll tell you this I'll never buy another JK. I sold my JK soprano recently at more than a $1000 loss as well on ebay. They are great horns, but they aren't Selmers and that's all I own now and all I'll ever own from here on out.

If it ain't a selmer it's not worth diddly.

jmm1713

· #3 · Jul 20, 2007

heath said:
If it ain't a selmer it's not worth diddly.

yep .

Agent27

· #4 · Jul 20, 2007

Of course, Selmer's are overvalued. I think some of it has to do with name recognition. Casual players know about Selmer's but not about Keilwerth.

Morry

· #5 · Jul 20, 2007

heath said:
I finally did end up selling mine on Ebay yesterday.

A tenor in mint condition. SX90 gold lacquer. 3 months old.

Purchased new $2495 from kessler, Sold on ebay and after paypal and ebay fees and some additional shipping cost I netted about $1500....that's a loss of $1000 on a horn without a scratch.

All the JK's from the soprano to the tenors have horrible resale value. The Baris seem to do ok, but I'll tell you this I'll never buy another JK. I sold my JK soprano recently at more than a $1000 loss as well on ebay. They are great horns, but they aren't Selmers and that's all I own now and all I'll ever own from here on out.

If it ain't a selmer it's not worth diddly.

I think you got hit extra hard because most folks look for the nickel plated Keilwerths. The plain lacquer ones are great players. I prefer my plain lacquer tenor over any plated JK I've played.

kaplac

· #6 · Jul 20, 2007

Just because keilwerths aren't exactly a home name.

Its kind of a saxophonist's best kept secret type of thing. The only problem is that it doesn't have a very big rep. Kinda like the Martin horns.

JCBigler

· #7 · Jul 20, 2007

Okay, first I have to ask, "why would you want to sell a Keilwerth in the first place?"

And second, you can set a minimum bid amount on eBay. If you didn't get as much as you wanted, then it's your fault. You don't have to take just any bid that comes in. That's what the reserve price is all about.

heath

· #8 · Jul 20, 2007

JCBigler said:
Okay, first I have to ask, "why would you want to sell a Keilwerth in the first place?"

And second, you can set a minimum bid amount on eBay. If you didn't get as much as you wanted, then it's your fault. You don't have to take just any bid that comes in. That's what the reserve price is all about.

Dude I was trying and trying to sell the thing. I posted it on Ebay twice the second time for a 10 day period. It just sat and sat and sat and sat. I asked for a reasonable amount at first and was getting no where. Honestly you can't hardly give a JK away. I only post BIN's on ebay because I prefer not to screw around anymore with deadbeat bidders that bid too high and then try to get out of the deal when the auction has ended.

As far as tenors I've got a VI, VII, Ref 36 and Ref 54. I don't think I need any more tenors.

My soprano is a series III.

JK could do a few things to improve the resale of their tenors. Number one fix the ergos on the lower stack. Number 2 really do a very sharp job of engraving, I know this has nothing to do with how the horn plays, but eye candy does sell and JK's current engraving could be described as shallow and very faint. They do those two things and the horn would probably fetch more.

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heath

· #9 · Jul 20, 2007

kaplac said:
Just because keilwerths aren't exactly a home name.

Its kind of a saxophonist's best kept secret type of thing. The only problem is that it doesn't have a very big rep. Kinda like the Martin horns.

Actually there's probably more to it than that. Ever notice how fast the Selmers and Yanagisawas sell. It's the faster more focused response of the smaller bore horns that makes them drive like a italian sports car. JK has a big bore/bow horn and the ergos need to be brought together.

The bottom line for me was I'm playing my VI everyday and the JK just couldn't compare to the buzz, faster response and dark lush sound of this horn. I thought the JK was a great horn, but after playing it for hours and then switching back to the VI, there was no comparison. People play these selmers for a reason. There's more to it than just the name or else about 99.9% of pros wouldn't be playing Selmers and if their not gigging with them then they pull them out when no one is looking in the studio.

mountainman

· #10 · Jul 20, 2007

heath said:
Actually there's probably more to it than that. Ever notice how fast the Selmers and Yanagisawas sell. It's the faster more focused response of the smaller bore horns that makes them drive like a italian sports car. JK has a big bore/bow horn and the ergos need to be brought together.

The bottom line for me was I'm playing my VI everyday and the JK just couldn't compare to the buzz, faster response and dark lush sound of this horn. I thought the JK was a great horn, but after playing it for hours and then switching back to the VI, there was no comparison. People play these selmers for a reason. There's more to it than just the name or else about 99.9% of pros wouldn't be playing Selmers and if their not gigging with them then they pull them out when no one is looking in the studio.

You are right in one respect. Many players particularly girls( not being sexist) and guys,especially those coming over from alto, don't have the air and breath support for a large bore horn. I play with a gal who wanted to play tenor and tried to switch from a Yamaha to an SX90 and gave up after a year and bought a Series III.

The standard 90s do take a lot of air but for that big, lush sound (if that's what you want) then it's worth paying you dues to get it. Then there is the Shadow! It whispers and it roars with practically no effort. No Selmer from a NEW Mk VI to the latest incarnations of the 36 and 54 will produce that big bore sound.

heath

· #11 · Jul 20, 2007

I honestly didn't have a problem filling the horn up with air it was more a matter of not having the focused sound of the selmer core that made me scratch my head and wonder what I was doing with the JK. There's lots of big bore horns that are very free blowing, I don't think they're necessarily harder to play it's just that they lack the compact sound of the french design.

To me the effort was in the key layout. I'm 6'2" and have decent sized hands and the lower stack was way too spread out for me. I felt like I was fumbling.

gary

· #12 · Jul 20, 2007

I'm also wondering about the marketing. There's so much hype on eBay as well as idiotic buyers, I wonder if marketing it as, just for example, a Vintage-type sax that all the former greats (ie Conn 10M) played, but with modern intonation, ergos, etc blah, blah, blah + some name dropping (Woody Herman, Buddy Rich band players played them) wouldn't get someone to buy it at a decent price.

heath

· #13 · Jul 20, 2007

The only problem is name dropping doesn't work for the JK. There's a limited number of pros that rep for JK and more often then not you see them live and in pictures holding a Selmer...usually a VI. Heck even Ernie Watts plays a VI and he's supposed to rep JK. Same thing with Liebman....VI when no one's looking.

stevesklar

· #14 · Jul 20, 2007

It seems as the the Couf branded horns have a "circle of enthusiats" which seems to be getting smaller all the time. The Tenors being the most sought after, followed by sop, alto & bari.

But i've been trying to trade/sell my Couf Superba 1 alto, in a very, very nice close to mint condition for ages now. Can't get any interest. Of course, if i drop the price to sub $1k then i get interest. they aren't selling on ebay for what i would like.

I have no problems with breath support, or any playing on the horn. Alot of it is setup and minor tweaks to make any horn really easy playing (and understanding its dynamics).

But tonally-wise ppl prefer my Selmer over my Couf/JK from sax & clarinet players - even if they didn't know what i was playing and swapping the two.

The RH ergos on the Couf absolutely kill it for me to be my daily player. The ergos just don't fit me at all. even repositioning the thumb everything else is still too misplaced for me - and I play an alto and tenor VII !! I had a Couf tenor but the RH ergos - i had to sell it - when I adjusted my thumb to 3 finger & Eb/C position then the side keys were misplaced.

The Selmer VII ergos were "perfect" or much better for my hands. Playing accuracy and speed improved instantaneously with A/B'ing them.

the 'focus' on the tone can be changed quite easily but there is also a special 'ring' (core) that i've only heard in Selmers. The brighter the mpc the less you hear it but it's still there. Some ppl don't hear that ring and don't understand, some don't want it, etc. And Selmer caught the industry decades ago with it's ergonomics and keywork going back to the BA/SBA/VIs. Nothing else really compared and they really stole the market.

The lushest horns i've heard are the Couf and especially the earlier New Kings. but then, so was the SBA i've played in the past.

Anyways, I wish my Couf was worth more on the open market. It's depressing on the resale value.

but then, it's all down to what ppl think they are worth

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stevesklar

· #15 · Jul 20, 2007

heath said:
The only problem is name dropping doesn't work for the JK. There's a limited number of pros that rep for JK and more often then not you see them live and in pictures holding a Selmer...usually a VI. Heck even Ernie Watts plays a VI and he's supposed to rep JK. Same thing with Liebman....VI when no one's looking.

The only one i can think of, who passed away a while ago was Grover Washington. he always posed with his Couf/JK tenor or soprano. I think he played a Selmer BA alto and i rarely saw a pic of him with that.

stevesklar

· #16 · Jul 20, 2007

heath said:
JK could do a few things to improve the resale of their tenors. Number one fix the ergos on the lower stack. Number 2 really do a very sharp job of engraving, I know this has nothing to do with how the horn plays, but eye candy does sell and JK's current engraving could be described as shallow and very faint. They do those two things and the horn would probably fetch more.

i think those would definitely help. I love the engraving on my Couf (different from the current JK), though the lower stack definitely needs help. And the newer JK you wonder if they get the bells engrave before they buff them for lacquer/plating - or they bought the engraving machines from Conn from the mid 80s which were also shallow and faint (being slightly sarcastic here)

gary

· #17 · Jul 20, 2007

stevesklar said:
The only one i can think of, who passed away a while ago was Grover Washington. he always posed with his Couf/JK tenor or soprano. I think he played a Selmer BA alto and i rarely saw a pic of him with that.

Yup, but I'm not talking about selling it to an insider. I mean one of the numerous morons out there who jump at all the wrong things. So, you woudn't say "Don Menza", you would say, "just like the legendary lead tenor player for Woody Herman Band, or the musical director/tenor soloist with the great Buddy Rich band", etc. And, you know, "these are so precisely hand-crafted that only a few are released to the public each year for purchase." :twisted:

Morry

· #18 · Jul 20, 2007

heath said:
The only problem is name dropping doesn't work for the JK. There's a limited number of pros that rep for JK and more often then not you see them live and in pictures holding a Selmer...usually a VI. Heck even Ernie Watts plays a VI and he's supposed to rep JK. Same thing with Liebman....VI when no one's looking.

Kirl Whalum plays a JK. Clarence Clemmons also. When Ernie Watts was in town, he was playing a JK.

Grumps

· #19 · Jul 20, 2007

If you bought a brand new, made in France Selmer today, and sold it tomorrow, you'd probably lose a grand as well. Reason enough to buy either (a new JK or Selmer) second hand.

rispoli

· #20 · Jul 20, 2007

Grumps said:
If you bought a brand new, made in France Selmer today, and sold it tomorrow, you'd probably lose a grand as well. Reason enough to buy either (a new JK or Selmer) second hand.

And I would not limit this consideration to Selmer and JK. All brand new saxophones are not fetching good immediate resale value nowadays. I see P.Mauriat going on ebay for 1500$ when they sell new for nearly twice as much, same for Cannonball (generally 1000 to 1700$ for a lightly used one, brand new prices around 3K), seems to me that Yanagisawas are the ones holding value better followed by Yamahas, but they still get penalized a lot.

Buying new is never a good deal.

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