[Meyer65]

I’m at my wits end with this. I apologize if this has been covered, I’ve spent a lot of time reading and while many articles and posts cover low notes (I seem to have half of them memorized) they all seem to be for players that can’t hit the notes at all, which isn’t my predicament.

A bit of background: I was a long time alto player, then picked up tenor for a year or so about 15 years ago until that horn was stolen. I took a break from playing for about 5 years, then bought a tenor and played for a year or so regularly in about 2013, didn’t play much since, and picked up again a month or two ago. I have off and on experience for 25 years, so while far from an expert, I’m also not a beginner and have significant time between alto, soprano, tenor and bari (in that order I’d say) from grade school band all the way through college with weekly lessons for 15 years and various concert and jazz bands. Again I have much to learn and grow but Voicing notes hasn’t been an issue for me in a very long time.

So here’s the issue: I can hit all the way down to Bb no problem as long as I start from say an E or even a D. I can play loud, soft, no problem, as long as I’m already playing and coming down from a note or two higher. In the course of most tunes and licks, it simply isn’t an issue, and I could fake it so an untrained listener would never know. But, if I try to start on a C or lower, especially B, I start up an octave for a second. I also struggle with warbling on and off while spending hours trying to just start these damn notes. Here’s what I’ve tried:

- had the horn checked for leaks and adjusted (it had many leaks), but it happens on my new (just regulated) 82z and my old YTS 61, which is Clancy but does not leak
-switched mouthpieces, and horns, to no real avail. But my mouthpieces are all 8s and I’m using 2.5 Alexander DCs. I guess I can’t try the 4c I have again? But playing that felt so restrictive, last time I put it on I couldn’t stand it for more than a few minutes.
-tried some soft reeds. Didn’t make much of a difference down low, but sounded horrible everywhere else
-the pressing the f key trick works occasionally but that seems a work around
-I can get the note out by really egging with my embouchure, ie by lifting my teeth off the piece, but I’m well aware this is not a good idea or habit
-tried playing loud, starting without using tongue (hwaaa vs taaa)
-the cork down the bell (didn’t do much)
-“thinking low and opening throat”

I pulled out my alto and have no problems with the low notes on it, but am aware it’s a completely different animal

I’m trying to organize lessons as well but with COVID that’s an issue too.

It honestly has me perplexed. I can roll down to Bb, pause, literally frozen embouchure, diaphragm, throat etc and when I re voice the note, whether tongued or not, far more often then not I ‘squeak’ by momentarily hitting the overtone.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, in the meantime I’ll continue to practice!

 

[Hassles]

I think your problems will disappear when you've developed a greater strength in your Diaphragm.

Try pulling your stomach in quite firmly just as as you begin to blow those low notes (with filled lungs) and ensure your Embouchure is also nice and firm.

 

[lesacks]

I had much the same problem. I didn't even realise it till I became more disciplined about practicing in all keys.

Anyway, between Jay's Better Sax and McGill's "honking" YouTubes, I got it sorted. It was posture and MP angle for me, but obviously embouchure, air support, breath, having the tone in your head, removing tension etc are important. Everything has to be on point.

The answer is out there.
You know you've found it when the Bb (tenor) blues scale works!
Get this sorted and, probably, everything will be better!

 

[Dave Pollack]

I have students practice “anti overtones” for this. Finger a low note then start blowing air, but not enough to make a sound. Then increase the air until the note actually starts playing. Focus on embouchure and diaphragm control (definitely get a private teacher if you don’t already have one) and keep increasing the volume of the note while making sure it doesn’t jump to any overtones. Then slow down the air until the note fades out, once again making sure to support enough so that it stays on the correct pitch the entire time. It’s tough, but it works for a lot of people!

 

[Saxophone Strange]

+1,000,000 on Mr. Pollack’s suggestion.

If I may add, I would also check where your embouchure is tightening and how much mouthpiece you are taking in while doing this. How far are you rolling your lip and possibly biting? Relevant to the exercise. The exercise stated above is really great for just starting to play and “wake up” your horn and also to align yourself with it.

 

[JayeLID]

Honestly, still sounds like leaks to me.....have you checked whether the G# is jumping on pinky notes ? A leak light would not show this unless one was looking for the jumping key, and tested for that specifically.

The G# would seem to seal fine, and the bow and bell keys would also look to seal fine.

....unless, unless, unless......is it POSSIBLE that when you finger the pinky table keys, you unwittingly are grazing a palm key just a tad ? Or perhaps lifting pressure off of the G key just a micron or two ???
This wouldn't happen on Alto because of the scale of the horn, but might happen on Tenor (?)

 

[Sigmund451]

Leaks, too open of a mpc, too hard of a reed, too short mouthpiece facing.

...and of course the player

 

[lydian]

I don’t think anyone has mentioned tonguing yet. Since you can slur down to the low notes, I think it could be your attack. Low notes need an attack further back on the tongue. The bigger the instrument, the further back you have to go. That’s why you don’t have the problem on alto.

Try slap tonging until you get the note to speak consistently. Then back off slowly until you can do soft attacks with less tongue.

 

[saxoclese]

This is symptomatic of all conical woodwinds. On the lowest 3 or 4 notes, the fundamental is weaker than the next two overtones requiring the correct oral cavity "voicing" adjustments on the part of the player to make the notes speak at the softer dynamic levels. In one acoustic experiment using an "artificial embouchure" it was reported the device could play no lower than F. To experience this acoustic "effect" start on low Bb at fortissimo, and do a slow diminuendo down to pianissimo keeping the embouchure and oral cavity the same. As the amplitude of the fundamental drops, it has less and less control over what Benade calls the "regime of oscillation" which is simply the combined frequencies of the fundamental and its harmonics. As you try this exercise, you will find that at a certain point, the first overtone automatically takes over, and the note you hear is an octave higher.

Part of the "voicing" in the oral cavity has to do with the shape of the tongue. Generally speaking, raising the back or center of the tongue as if saying "EEE" encourages the higher harmonics as when playing the harmonic series while fingering low Bb or playing altissimo. Keeping the throat and oral cavity open with the back of the tongue in a low position as if saying "AHH" encourages the fundamental to sound. As a teacher for many years I noticed how some of my students raised the back of the tongue while tonguing with a "Tee" syllable making an entrance on the lowest notes difficult, if not impossible at the softer dynamic levels. I would suggest starting a note with a "Tah" syllable or even the more legato "Dah. That can be switched to a "Tu" or "Du" once the feeling of lowering the back of the tongue is achieved.

Another way to approach starting on low Bb is to use a breath "entrance" as Dave Pollock describes (I dislike the term "attack" because we don't "attack" notes, we play them). This takes the tongue entirely out of the picture. Another exercise I used with my students was to have them slur down to low Bb and hold it as a long tone. When they could do that, I instructed them after the note started to slowly tongue the note legato with a "du-du-du-du" keeping the air flowing and not allowing a break in the sound. After this was mastered, the next step was to put a one count rest after each "du" keeping the air pressure behind the tongue in each rest. In my approach all tonguing was done with the tip of the tongue or the spot just behind the tip, and for this exercise the tongue moved like a feather touching and releasing the reed.

 

[Meyer65]

Thank you everyone for the thoughtful and helpful responses, this is such a great community and I really appreciate everyone’s advice!

I’ve been working on this issue for a while now, and yesterday paid careful attention to my oral cavity, embouchure and diaphragm/breathing. I believe I am getting better at this (and have been) it just isn’t coming as fast as I’d like. I’m much more consistently able to staccato on the low notes, which I believe is getting me much closer to my goal. I think I just need to keep practicing!

In unrelated news, I did hit an altissimo G yesterday, my first attempt at anything above F# and I actually sounded decent! I have to work my way up to that note, but that’s to be expected I imagine for the first ever attempt at it.

 

[lesacks]

Great.
And altisimo probably isn't unrelated. Seems to me that getting good control over the hard notes - altisimo, overtones, low Bb, etc. - all adds up to generally being in control...

 

[dexdex]

Thanks for asking, and thanks for all the helpful answers and hints.

 

[JakeLampe]

Just wanted to drop one more idea that helps expose the actual voicing adjustment needed to get the low notes to play. This one is a bit less forgiving (at least for me it is!)...so if you aren't making the right change it won't drop down.

Play an open C# for about second
Now finger low C# but maintain the same pitch (1st overtone of the low C#), one more second
Finally use your air and voicing to drop down to the low C# (just air, fingers don't move here) and finish the breath here

You can repeat the equivalent process for the final 3 low notes (C, B, and Bb) using the same method.

Based on your actual air capacity you might be able to stretch the duration of each a bit longer, or maybe have to shorten it if your mouthpiece is beast mode.

-jake

 

[click]

When this happened to me on one of my horns, it was the neck.

I sent it back to the tech 3 times.

When I got it back the last time, the neck was very snug indeed.

Problem solved.