who can compare early Jubilee to current models?
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Joined
·
38,761 Posts
We know there were mechanism changes in the first Jubilee series around the mid 18xxxJ value.
What I believe Leon is referring to here is the very new series as characterized by serial numbers starting with "OBT" vs serial numbers with a "J".
One change in the OB series is the mechanism on the low B key.
What I believe Leon is referring to here is the very new series as characterized by serial numbers starting with "OBT" vs serial numbers with a "J".
One change in the OB series is the mechanism on the low B key.
Joined
·
1,361 Posts
There are lots of later J horns that also have a single arm on low B.
Joined
·
38,761 Posts
Hmmm, I see that... Here is 196xx at TenorMadness.com
and OBT233 (formerly shown at PMWoodwinds.com, now at a friend's home)
Joined
·
5,584 Posts
Thats like ours DR G,the new 1's have the smaller bell and the low C/Eflat keys are more rounder now.Nice used vintage model borg there but look at the price to the 1 i'm selling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1Here's a profile shot of the full horn and bell
![]()
Joined
·
38,761 Posts
Does the bell of this one (OBTxxx) look appreciably smaller? I can call my friend to ask him to measure it if that'll help the discussion.
![]()
Or perhaps they are making concurrent runs of large/small bell OBT models.
Here is a pic of its Eb/C keys
![]()
Or perhaps they are making concurrent runs of large/small bell OBT models.
Here is a pic of its Eb/C keys
Joined
·
5,584 Posts
The vintage bell is larger for sure,i have seen the other pics of it compared to the pm horn bell.I like the larger bell flare ,it looks more retro.Does the bell of this one (OBTxxx) look appreciably smaller? I can call my friend to ask him to measure it if that'll help the discussion.
![]()
Or perhaps they are making concurrent runs of large/small bell OBT models.
Here is a pic of its Eb/C keys
![]()
Joined
·
38,761 Posts
Now if they would just add a silver tone ring 'neath the lip...
I'll see about adding some numbers to the discussion - got to make a phone call. Can you believe that my friend has a collection of tenors, a passion for listening and playing, and yet doesn't participate at SotW? Color me incredulous...
I'll see about adding some numbers to the discussion - got to make a phone call. Can you believe that my friend has a collection of tenors, a passion for listening and playing, and yet doesn't participate at SotW? Color me incredulous...
Joined
·
38,761 Posts
"Retro" as in TH&C or as in Big B? :mrgreen:[rolleyes]
Now if they would just add a silver tone ring 'neath the lip...
I'll see about adding some numbers to the discussion - got to make a phone call. Can you believe that my friend has a collection of tenors, a passion for listening and playing, and yet doesn't participate at SotW? Color me incredulous...
Joined
·
38,761 Posts
It's not. There is a recent thread regarding this particular auction.
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?168917-Pre-Jubilee-or
Please request the mods delete your derails.
Joined
·
12,003 Posts
Admin Note
Thanks for reporting, although in this instance I think it is best to leave it as is in order to let others know that there is another thread regarding that auction.
Joined
·
489 Posts
I will post some pics soon of my unlaq Borg tenor (serial no: 190***) No double arm low B. I will measure bell flare as well....
Joined
·
5,584 Posts
I'm sure you have a big bell end on your horn Ray:cyclopsa::yikes!:
Joined
·
267 Posts
Hi,
i talk to Orfeo last Sunday. he told me they changed the form of the bell to have a quicker action on the low B and Bb. with the newer bell they don't need the double armed low B. he told me the change was made more for the design and action, than for the sound that is maybe a little more centred with the new bell.
Also he said the OB series is the same as the late J serie, and they call it Jubillee 2.
i talk to Orfeo last Sunday. he told me they changed the form of the bell to have a quicker action on the low B and Bb. with the newer bell they don't need the double armed low B. he told me the change was made more for the design and action, than for the sound that is maybe a little more centred with the new bell.
Also he said the OB series is the same as the late J serie, and they call it Jubillee 2.
Joined
·
5,204 Posts
With the mechanism... the main problem is the low C# linkage on sopranos. I first noticed it when a friend bought one some years ago. I told them about it, it was hard to understand so I think I remember they asked for photos. Anyway I sent them photos and explained. Now almost every year since then I check them at Musikmesse and when someone brings one (a few so far) and it's still the same every year! grrr.......
They really didn't seem like one of those companies who don't accept outside free suggestions so I don't know why they keep making them this way. You only need to play it to notice the C# is too strong and only need to check the linkage (with some technical sense) to see its design requires a too strong spring to be reliable... other than that and a few other small quirks it's such a good soprano!
The low C# mechanism on the tenor is a little stiff too, but I'm getting used to it. It may be only my impression, but it does seem to me that this modern version I am playing (less than a year old) has more core than my very early model.
Joined
·
5,204 Posts
From what I remember, the altos and tenors have a pretty normal linkage design for C#, so if it feels stiff (and I found new Borganis to feel a bit stiff in general) then it can most likely be improved by adjusting the spring (possibly both springs).
The problem I mentioned is specific to Borgani sopranos (possibly some other brands too). Even with a relatively light spring to the C# key, the lever needs a strong (or overly tensioned) spring to close the key reliably, or at all. This is to do with the design of the linkage. You can see a photo of it on my website, review of a Borgani gold plated soprano (one before last photo) http://www.nitailevi.com/reviews/sop_sax/borgani/borgani_sop24k.htm
The problem is the direction of the force. At closed position, the force from the lever is not in the direction that closes the key best, so a lot of it goes to waste. Imagine a big square box that has walls on both sides, so you can push and pull it only forwards and backwards. Put your arms up and try to push it forward, you need a certain amount of force to do that. Now stand in an angle to the box and push it forward but also towards the blocking wall. The box would still move forward, but you need a lot more energy (force) to move it the same as before. Use the same force and it moves less. This is the problem with the key.
The design can be improved, unfortunately with some damage to the finish in that luckily almost invisible area (the finish seems to be silver, then gold, then clear lacquer). My friend who owns this soprano chose to have it done and accepted the small finish wear, and never regretted it. Every one of the approx ten sopranos I've seen had this issue.
Sorry for this long winded post, but this problem really gets to me.......
The problem I mentioned is specific to Borgani sopranos (possibly some other brands too). Even with a relatively light spring to the C# key, the lever needs a strong (or overly tensioned) spring to close the key reliably, or at all. This is to do with the design of the linkage. You can see a photo of it on my website, review of a Borgani gold plated soprano (one before last photo) http://www.nitailevi.com/reviews/sop_sax/borgani/borgani_sop24k.htm
The problem is the direction of the force. At closed position, the force from the lever is not in the direction that closes the key best, so a lot of it goes to waste. Imagine a big square box that has walls on both sides, so you can push and pull it only forwards and backwards. Put your arms up and try to push it forward, you need a certain amount of force to do that. Now stand in an angle to the box and push it forward but also towards the blocking wall. The box would still move forward, but you need a lot more energy (force) to move it the same as before. Use the same force and it moves less. This is the problem with the key.
The design can be improved, unfortunately with some damage to the finish in that luckily almost invisible area (the finish seems to be silver, then gold, then clear lacquer). My friend who owns this soprano chose to have it done and accepted the small finish wear, and never regretted it. Every one of the approx ten sopranos I've seen had this issue.
Sorry for this long winded post, but this problem really gets to me.......
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
