[abadcliche]

Sometime in the later run of Mark VI altos, Selmer put a patch inside the bow- most likely as part of their continuing experimentation with bow length and internal volume.

My personal experience is that these altos (with the patch in the bow) are excellent players, with a strong, full voice that seems to transfer much of the player's energy into sound, know what I mean?

So- anybody have any information on these horns? Which ones is it? Is it a solid serial run? Is it perhaps just the American-assembled horns? Is it catch-as-catch can? Why was it put there? Does anyone else agree with my assessment that these are particularly good horns?

Photos of the patch I'm talkin' 'bout:

 

[1saxman]

I guess this lends credence to the old 'wine cork down the bell' trick.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I was under the impression this was just a fix for the weak/burbling low B. (More permanent than a wine cork). I didn't realise they did such a messy job of soldering it in place, but then I suppose it's a bit awkward to get to.

 

[milandro]

I always thought these were fixes by technicians ( no disrespect ) and not by Selmer which could do a better job at soldering this before lacquering I think, even if it was in that awkward spot. Anyway I have an 202XXX alto 1972, rather late, no gurgle and no patch.

 

[saxtek]

My 210,XXX Mark VI alto with low A has the patch. The severe bend of the saxophone bottom bow acts acoustically as a "bulge" in the tubing. The patch reduces the internal volume of the tube in the area of the "bulge." Keilwerth solved the problem by making the bottom bow with a larger radius. Less severe bend = Less severe bulge.

 

[milandro]

then why does my 202XXX patchless horn need no patch?

 

[abadcliche]

Because its not a deal-breaker, and the severity of the effect depends heavily upon mouthpiece selection and player physiology, and can also be ameliorated by setup.

 

[milandro]

so, because of this logic , this couldn't have been a modification made by selmer BEFORE selling the sax and contemporary to the production process!

 

[abadcliche]

My guess so far is that if you see a soldered patch like the one pictured (because there are similar things put in place by repairmen, similar but not exactly the same) it is on an American assembled horn. I've got a Euro horn here that fits in the range where I have seen this, but no patch.

Milandro, I'm pretty certain this is a "factory" patch. They have varying degrees of sloppyness, this one is particularly sloppy. But the patches are all in the same place, with the same shape, in a certain serial range. Soldering something that large with that much solder inside the bore would definitely burn lacquer, so it had to be done pre-lacquering. Most of the aftermarket (repairman-installed) stuff I see is either tacked in place by a couple of small solder spots or epoxied or contact cemented, thus avoiding lacquer burn.

 

[abadcliche]

so, because of this logic , this couldn't have been a modification made by selmer BEFORE selling the sax and contemporary to the production process!

Then palm key risers cannot exist!

 

[milandro]

the american made thing makes sense, after all they were assembled (and If I remember well also lacquered) in the Elkhart factory.

I would I thought it was something that they did if the client complained and not across the board.

 

[abadcliche]

If you get close down to any saxophone ever made, there are places where improvements can be made and sometimes definitely should have been made. Nobody has made a perfect one yet.

 

[sugaki]

Hmm, but how would you know it was done by Selmer and not after the fact? Btw the cork in my bow makes a big difference. Always disliked the low B until a tech put in that in there and presto, no more problem.

 

[milandro]

I am sure that's true, but this is a particular case especially because the same sax was sold in different places with apparently a solution to something that was a problem somewhere and wasn't somewhere else

 

[abadcliche]

My 210,XXX Mark VI alto with low A has the patch. The severe bend of the saxophone bottom bow acts acoustically as a "bulge" in the tubing. The patch reduces the internal volume of the tube in the area of the "bulge." Keilwerth solved the problem by making the bottom bow with a larger radius. Less severe bend = Less severe bulge.

I went to a saxophone factory to consult once and found a problem with their curved soprano. Awful low end, horrible burbling, etc. I asked them if they had copied a straight soprano and then simply bent it. Sheepishly they said yes, and I explained this acoustic rule to them, then demonstrated it with a wine cork. A tight bend in a tube has the same acoustic effect as enlarging the tube! Ferron FTW

 

[abadcliche]

Hmm, but how would you know it was done by Selmer and not after the fact? Btw the cork in my bow makes a big difference. Always disliked the low B until a tech put in that in there and presto, no more problem.

Like I said above: "Soldering something that large with that much solder inside the bore would definitely burn lacquer, so it had to be done pre-lacquering."

 

[Thomas]

I think it's been discussed here several times through the years how Selmer changed the bow design of the VI altos a few times to solve a variety of different issues. Can't point you to a thread but I'm pretty sure it's here.

 

[milandro]

yes but this a slight different angle (pardon my pun)

 

[abadcliche]

Yep, I'm fairly well versed on the bow stuff, though I always like to hear more. Here is a photo I took of short, long, medium bow Selmer altos next to each other.

from L to R: short, long, medium bow

 

[Dave Dolson]

Matt: Interesting. I've always thought that the cork-down-the-bell trick was a sort of mickey-mouse way of dealing with a mechanical issue (leaking pads, improper adjustments, even poor embouchure). Oh, I suppose it may work for some, but whenever one of my horns got the gurgles, I was able to fix it by having the horn fixed.

At any rate, this thread is good as is the photo. But I'm wondering if the dimensions of those three horn's bows are different - they look almost exactly alike (with the obvious exception of where the joints are located), with MAYBE the one on the left (the short bow?) having a VERY slight difference to my eye. So, the major difference is where the joints are located, at least to my untrained eye. Is that critical? Can the air-stream recognize those joints and/or the various lengths of those bows? I doubt it.

Seems to me that the curvature may have more to do with it then the length of the bell. If they are the same general dimensions (recognizing that in saxophone making, the tolerances aren't always closely followed) and Selmer went about changing the bow lengths, did they do that just to placate the Selmer-buying crowd?

I once owned a VI alto but now I don't recall where the joints were located. The horn played well - no gurgles. My son has it now . . . a 1962 vintage as far as I could tell.

Good discussion. DAVE