Which pads to replace?

IMHO, it is nigh impossible to make an accurate estimate from just pictures. What matters most is how they seal and how they feel, and you have to have the horn in hand to figure that out. What looks like a new pad in that photo might seal terribly, and what looks like an old hard pad might still have plenty of life left in it and seal great. Trust your leaklight.

Although if a gun were held to my head and I HAD to make an estimate based on just those pictures, I'd probably want to chem clean the horn and replace all the pads (at least- who knows about the mechanics... is there play that needs to be removed?) judging by the dirt on the sax itself and the bend in several of the keys- that horn can't have been in to have proper work done on it in a while. Whether or not the customer wants to do that too, well, I'll do what I'm allowed to do

Let me get this right...
You are replacing pads and conditioning (what do you mean by that exactly?) horns.
And you are charging your customers for your work and services, I take this to mean you are a saxophone technician, and you cannot determine if a pad is good or bad?

I believe he is asking whether some of the pads in the picture need to be replaced and if so which ones since he doesn't want to replace all of them.

As for your question, it looks to me like there are a bunch of pads that look like they need to be replaced but they may very well be fine. I'm guessing you put a leak light down before you disassembled it, which ones leak? Replace any leaky ones and any really hard ones. Besides that, you kind of have to use your judgment. Its hard to tell from pictures alone whether a pad is any good.

frasermanx said:

The stack keys take a lot more time because the regulation is disturbed (but I am getting faster) so I charge a lot more to do that.

Click to expand...

You charge your customer more because you are inexperienced and slow?

Maybe they should wait to come back when you know more and charge less! :shock:

Yikes! I have talked to fraser in the past during a trade we did and I was under the impression that he just repaired on the side for kicks. I missed the part in his first post about "charging". I thought this was a DIY type help question...

Othello3 said:

Besides that, you kind of have to use your judgment. Its hard to tell from pictures alone whether a pad is any good.

Click to expand...

Othello, are you trying to get your post count up or what? The past few posts I have seen from you are just repeating things that other people have already said- in particular, me!

Hey, give the guy a break. We don't know what he charges. He only said he charges more for stack keys than for palm keys. So do I. I've seen guys get $8-10 a pad for palm keys on a Bundy II and how long does that take? I charge way less. If his customers know he's inexperienced and learning and he charges accordingly and they're happy, what's the problem. We already saw the foam pads that some NYC jack*ss installed for a $1000. I've seen plenty of reputable [meaning they have a good reputation] techs leave pads that I would have replaced and I've seen guys do a full repad when it wasn't close to necessary. Anybody whose ever experienced sticker shock at their Allied bill knows he's got to charge something.

fwiw - Upon inspection of the photos I notice 4 (FOUR) different types of pads on this sax. It's already been compromised by weekend warriors. This is also IMO not a DIY project. Rather an overhaul by a qualified tech, considering it is a vintage 20.

Yeah, Jerry. It brings back painful memories to me. I had a nice Super 20 that was so buggered in an overhaul by a newbie tech that I could do nothing with it but trade it away. It was better in the poor condition that I bought it in than after its overhaul. The new pads were all premium Pisonis though! Too bad it wouldn't play.

I agree that a full overhaul by a master tech is always preferable to anything less, especially on valuable vintage horns. But, in the real world, many people just don't have that $700 to $1000+. If nothing irreversible is done...no lacquer burn, no bad solder, NO OVERCHARGING, I don't see any real problem.

If someone buggered my horn so badly that I have to trade it away, I would certainly seek legal advice!

Which is it, you don't see any real problem or you would seek legal advice?

For a guy who once accused me of "not reading for content" you sure seem to be doing just that.If it was an overhaul of course it's a problem. You paid for something you didn't get. Or maybe not. I assume you play tested it before paying? If a guy pays $30 to get an unplayable horn up and running until he can afford a legitimate overhaul, that's where I don't see a problem.

abadcliche said:

Othello, are you trying to get your post count up or what? The past few posts I have seen from you are just repeating things that other people have already said- in particular, me!

Click to expand...

Well I guess great minds think alike.

LBAjazz said:

For a guy who once accused me of "not reading for content" you sure seem to be doing just that.If it was an overhaul of course it's a problem. You paid for something you didn't get. Or maybe not. I assume you play tested it before paying? If a guy pays $30 to get an unplayable horn up and running until he can afford a legitimate overhaul, that's where I don't see a problem.

Click to expand...

IMO $30 won't get the job done. Besides, after looking at the condition of, and the various types of pads used, and obviously repaired by more than 4 different techs, they have been using the band-aid approach since they bought it 40 years ago. Put new tires on the '57 Chevy and do it right..

LBAjazz said:

For a guy who once accused me of "not reading for content" you sure seem to be doing just that.If it was an overhaul of course it's a problem. You paid for something you didn't get. Or maybe not. I assume you play tested it before paying? If a guy pays $30 to get an unplayable horn up and running until he can afford a legitimate overhaul, that's where I don't see a problem.

Click to expand...

Nice try. Now pause to THINK about it. If the "repairman" takes your horn apart, installs new pads, "adjusts" the horn, etc., what does one have left after the job? Sure, I played it. What do you do when it doesn't work? Iterate? Put the old pads and corks back on? Do you pay the tech or ask the tech to pay you for the experience of working on your vintage instrument? No, I didn't pay for the job - but I still lost money on it.

Yeah, you really don't see the problem, do you?

EDIT: this edit was added much later. Of course I see a problem with the scenario put forth by Dr. G. I was referring to the original post and it's responses. Sorry for the miscommunication on my part.

No offense LBA but Dr. G is in the right on this one. There are no real legal options in a case like this. For starters, the transaction lacks a formal contract or work order (usually) that states exactly what is being requested and paid for. Even if their is, said contract (or what may pass for one) likely only binds the tech to the replacing of pads, corks, etc... unless "Must be playable" is listed, you have nothing to compare the work requested with the work completed. Even then, playability is subjective so there is another hurdle, playability must be defined in a way that it will not be contested by either side (nearly impossible to do).

Technically speaking, even if the sax isn't playable, the tech did what they were told so they cannot be liable. Yeah it sucks, but thats why people fork it over for more experienced techs to work on their gear.

The "doctor" implied that his horn was ruined ["so buggered in an overhaul by a newbie tech that I could do nothing with it but trade it away"]. It was in response to that, that I suggested legal remedy. At some point, apples [a play condition repair by frasermanx] got confused for oranges [ a botched overhaul of G's horn]. The points I was failing to make are:[1] nobody knows the price charged by Fraser or the communications between him and his customer. [2] Not everyone with a horn that would be best served [in a perfect world] by a full masterly overhaul can afford to have that done at the time they desire that their horn be made playable.[3] If the customer is satisfied and no permanent harm has been done to the horn, what's the problem? Anything else is a result of my inability to communicate or other people reading into my posts something I did not intend.