Which do you pactice more? Scales or Rhythms?

Dog Pants, when I practice it's pretty much on fundamentals - long tones, scales, chords, intervals, change running, etc.

I think your question is really about rhythm though and I don't practice that as such. What I do in that regard, though, is evaluate my playing. I listen to recorded solos of mine and hear where I might be relying too much on certain rhythm patterns, so then I might play improvised solos (maybe w/ BIAB) and try to avoid these redundant rhythms. I also hear where I'm stale and so I look for opportunities in my solos to play different, more interesting rhythms.

I also (and have since time immemorial ) listened to other players and if I get stale, I might cop some of their rhythmic ideas and work them out.

I don't spend a lot of time "practicing" rhythms, but I try to have big ears when I play and eliminate or add accordingly.

For those who need a jump start, there's a pretty good book and CD, "Ultimate Funk Grooves" by Ben Tompsett which has almost 100 characteristic riffs that players could incorporate into their playing.

The same company, ADG Productions, has also an Ultimate Jazz Riffs and a 100 Blues Riffs published. I do not know these books, but if they are the same quality as the Funk book, then they might serve as good sources.

Dog Pants said: "At the more advanced of the workshops I've recently attended, everyone can play. They're all active players in a good big band. Everyone knows their scales and basic theory.

It wasn't that the better improvisers knew more theory. I think that they knew more rhythms and were much surer with their rhythmic placement and time. They swung more.

So I wonder, which do you practice more? New Scales, Licks and Patterns, or New Rhythms on the ones you already know?"

In a way, the big question of how to learn to improvise, as well as how to teach it is, "What do you do with all these damn scales and chords anyway?"
Before jazz education become so organized, it boiled down to playing along with records and jamming with other musicians. I think it still does.
Still, I think it is a good question and there are things you can do.
I've not practiced rhythms separately much, but, I have taken a given mode or scale and improvised on it, going through the keys by m2's, M2's, M3's, etc., trying to make musical sense, while getting familiar with fingering of the scale on the horn. I've also taken an eight bar rhythm, selected a particular mode or scale to use, and then taken it through the keys. It helps to imagine a chord progression to play over.
I think your spot on, Dog Pants, in that the rhythms, (along with the phrasing--hard to separate the two in practice), are what make solos work. It's hard to separate this and put it in exercises that aren't either extremely boring or extremely Zen though......daryl

Here's something I like to do:

Start with a melody you like (could be a standard, part of a solo, a line you like to play, etc).

Take out everything that is not essential. What can you take out of the line and have it still sound like the same line? What is the essential melodic movement and what is embellishment?

Play just these essential notes, in their correct place in the line rhythmically.

This is the core melody and melodic rhythm of this line. Note how it corresponds to the harmony and harmonic rhythm.

I find these lines in themselves to be quite compelling, but you can also play around with this melody in many ways. Here's a couple of things you can do with them.

Experiment with the melodic embellishment of this core melody. You can add almost anything in between these notes and it will still be essentially the same- it will make the same kind of melodic sense.

Experiment with changing the rhythmic placement of this core melody. See what happens.

It is my experience that every line I enjoy is at core a simple, swinging melody.

Please remember that while one can learn about different rhythms from a book, there is only one way to learn that mysterious thing called swing or groove or feel - that's the direct experience of it. How you play the quarter note (and how playing it in different ways feels different) is just as important as the fact that it was a quarter note.

Hi Dog Pants,

Sneeky here again. After actually reading the thread this time, I felt my initial response was selling you short, and felt compelled to add a little more.

If I am understanding correctly, you are really wanting to know which methods will enhance your ability to swing harder. I hope thats close. I think all responses here are correct by the way!

I would like to add:

Become an obsessed fan of the styles of music you enjoy. Study its heritage, and those that interpreted it.

Thinking "analytically" has also vastly improved my progress through the study of music. Without a sound practice schedule, routine, and evaluation process on a weekly basis, I would feel stagnate or something.
I warm up on various scales everyday until they get to feeling subliminal. If it takes forever, it takes forever. Then I'll get into phrasing them out in various patterns, modes, etc, etc that I hear in my head. Using a metrodome or creating loops is great for keeping time.

To me improvisation has alot to do with time and phrasing. The styles of jazz you prefer contain certain phrasing characteristics. You can never listen to enough music. I personally love bebop, hard bop, blues, funk, and some contemporary stuff. Imagine with me the amount of artists I get to listen to. Sure I have my preferences!

Another thing is to not seclude yourself to listening to just sax players. Listening to trumpet, piano, guitar, and bass players have given me a wider appreciation to my preferred styles as well.
Just an example here: I completely dig Clifford Brown's phrasings over alot of sax players phrasings.
Listening is important because it develops the ear. When you start to effortlessly translate / relate the messages in your mind through your voice (instr.), then your home free man... All this is still a work in progress for me and always will be.

I will close with this:

My old sax teacher was one of the sweetest players I've ever herd.
He always used to say: Less Is More!

Peace,

SneekyJ