[spiesse]

Can somebody help me?
I've recently bought a baritone sax and I really want to know which one it is. It has a G# trill key, no low A and the serial number is 6499. The engraving sais 'King' but I'm not really sure if it is a King. I posted some pictures on http://studwww.ugent.be/~kspiesse/bari sax/ . Thanks for helping me.

Karel

 

[Helen]

I'm no expert on King saxes (other than having briefly owned a Super 20 many years ago), but this does appear to be a King student model baritone.

Another sax player I used to work with had one very similar to it. I unfortunatley don't know the serial number of his.

Any other King owners (or past owners like myself) out there got any ideas?

The important thing...Tell us, how does it play? Do you like it?

 

[csax]

Interesting tho' that it seems to have the RH G# trill, a throwback to the 20's, but the engraving style looks more modern. Does it also have the old forked Eb (where lifting the RH second finger trills Eb), or wasn't that implimented on Bari's ?

Too far back to remember what my Buescher bari had...

 

[xax]

I believe that is a King Lemaire. an AmatiI ABS21 stencil. The Amati design is pretty much a copy of an earlier Keilwerth or Kohlert design. Saxpics.com has more info.

 

[spiesse]

The sound is awesome .
I have to use a meyer mouthpiece (although an Otto-link plays easier for me) or otherwise the sound is too sharp.
I don't understand what you mean by an old forked Eb... (I speak Dutch and your sentence was a little bit too difficult for me
I don't think that it is a King Lemaire, there are too many differences. I read that the old King-factory burned down in the beginning of the 20th century and they were'nt able to recover the documents of the saxes with serial numbers lower then 50xxx. But I went to somebody who knows verry much about these things an he said that the mechanics are to modern so my bari can't be that old. I bought the sax in februari and I looked everwhere (in Belgium) but nobody knows the exact model or date so I hoped you guys could help me. Anyway, thanks for answering.

 

[xax]

The following two pics are from Saxpics.com

First is a pic of a King Lemaire neck (pics are originally from "Cybersax.com" ). The octave vent appears (to me) to be the same as what is on your King bari. You will also find this configuration on Boosey & Hawkes LaFleur Baris, Amati ABS21, and also a Kohlert design from the 50's(?)

Here's a quote from Cybersax's page (http://cybersax.com/4sale.html) about the King Lemaire...

This instrument is of a good design derived from the great old Kohlert saxophones. It was built by Amati in Kraslice, The Czech Republic under an arrangement between them, King & SML, where King marketed instruments in North America that were designed & made in Europe by the other two firms. The Kraslice area is in Bohemia, which has changed hands many times over the years as wars raged through Central Europe. Kraslice itself is very near the current German border, and is where Julius Keilwerth and Joseph Kohlert (Amati claims ties to the Kohlert legacy today) built great saxophones & bassoons for many years. The town was called 'Graslitz' at the time Keilwerth started there in 1925. The horn doesn't have a bad pedigree at all, and though it doesn't currently play, the old Kohlert baris that I've played are really rockin' ole dudes.

According to Saxpics, the King/SML association began about 1960(which may help in dating your horn)...

As seen in the second pic below, your horn appears to be a nearly exact copy of the Keilwerth Toneking (I think this pic was originally on "WorldWideSax.com").

For more pics of this Keilwerth go here:
http://www.saxpics.com/cpg143/thumbnails.php?album=1981

 

[spiesse]

thanks for all the help

 

[Helen]

A couple of things that are different between Cybersax's King & spiesse's are that the keyguard's on Cybersax's resemble those of the old Conn's whereas spiesse's are flattened. Also the engraving on the 2 horns seems different.

Strange...The mystery continues...

 

[xax]

A couple of things that are different between Cybersax's King & spiesse's are that the keyguard's on Cybersax's resemble those of the old Conn's whereas spiesse's are flattened. Also the engraving on the 2 horns seems different.

Hey Helen, Your point is well taken. The engraving is "mos def" not the same. Further, the pictured Lemaire and JK Amati horns show soldered keyguards of what looks like a hexagonal cross section. Spiesse's flatwire keyguards are actually removable, more or less like sheet metal guards. The flat removable keyguards are also found on some(most?) Amati ABS21,31 (aka Classic or Super Classic?) as well as some other Amati stencils I've seen. My Boosey& Hawkes LaFleur (silver plate, low A) which is an Amati stencil, has the same type removable flatwire guards. FWIW, I think mine has an 80s build date.
Perhaps, spiesse's horn is a stencil of a stencil...?