Where have all the KEILWERTHS gone????

6125 Views 39 Replies 16 Participants Last post by mountainman, Jun 6, 2007

sycc

Discussion Starter · May 11, 2007

WWBW is closing then out. USA horn has very little in stock. Still think the dumbest thing KEILWERTH has done is discontinue the SX(w/o the R)-90 line. Although the SX-90s do appear on the schreiber site.

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heath

· #2 · May 11, 2007

They can't sell them for the prices Keilwerth is asking.

Keilwerth has changed distributors to sonare I believe and the SX90 was discontinued because the (R) commanded $1000 to $1300 more. Simply put it's a money grab. If you have a company and you can make $1000 more off a product that takes perhaps one or two additional man hours you'd have to be an idiot not to do it.

I recently bought a SX90 tenor and for the past few months I've been loving it. I wouldn't be surprised if they start producing the SX90 line again as the tone hole rings are unnecessary and for some they can be problematic.

mountainman

· #3 · May 11, 2007

heath said:
They can't sell them for the prices Keilwerth is asking.

Keilwerth has changed distributors to sonare I believe and the SX90 was discontinued because the (R) commanded $1000 to $1300 more. Simply put it's a money grab. If you have a company and you can make $1000 more off a product that takes perhaps one or two additional man hours you'd have to be an idiot not to do it.

I recently bought a SX90 tenor and for the past few months I've been loving it. I wouldn't be surprised if they start producing the SX90 line again as the tone hole rings are unnecessary and for some they can be problematic.

I think it is another marketing mistake, but if they could continue selling them at a profeit I expect they would. They appear to be conceding the middle ground to the likes of P Mauriat and Cannonball.

The Shadow has also disappeared from saxforte and soon to disappear from WWBW. Priced itself right out of sight for most people. No sense stocking what you can't sell!

Looks like JK is following the path of B&S!

Budget Explosion

· #4 · May 11, 2007

I thought B&S was done in by crappy marketing; IMHO Keilwerth is just too expensive.

14470

· #5 · May 11, 2007

Buffet own Keilwerth and have re-launched a line of saxophones made in Taiwan. FWIW, my understanding is that Buffet isn't much interested in keeping the Keilwerth or the costs of manufacturing saxophones in Germany. Since it is not easy to lay of people like here, their "fix" is to limit the supplies to make the saxophones in the first place. The net result is that the cost of making the horns rise to the point where the plant will have to be shut down. After that, the Keilwerth brand name can be sold and we can buy Taiwanese Keilwerth saxophones that like the new Buffets have retained nothing but their name (not that they may not be perfectly good horns).

Hurling Frootmig

· #6 · May 11, 2007

Buffet does not own Keilwerth any longer.

heath

· #7 · May 11, 2007

Yes Keilwerth are being distributed by Sonare a division of the Powell flute company.

Who knows what kind of strategy they will bring to Keilwerth. I hope they don't price themselves out of the market as the Keilwerths imo are the modern horn to the vintage American sound....at least for the tenor.

The price increases that Keilwerth has gone through reflects the current low value of the $ and the high manufacturing cost in Germany. No easy way to get these horns to sell, especially when a kid has a choice between buying a Selmer Ref or III series for almost the same amount of cash, and most kids look at Selmer as the holy grail.

At any rate I wouldn't go bonkers and snatch up all the JK's just yet. I'm an optimist that they will stay around and keep producing superb horns, but like everyone else I agree the prices have got to come down.

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14470

· #8 · May 11, 2007

Hurling Frootmig said:
Buffet does not own Keilwerth any longer.

Good to be wrong! (me)

rispoli

· #9 · May 11, 2007

I've said already in an older thread that in all MBA programs is taught that if you are financially in trouble you won't back out of that picture just by raising prices or cutting everything but the upper end of your production, especially if you are not the undisputed market leader with regard to quality (otherwise strategies of this category can be called "production rationalization" and those sometimes succeed).

Yes, the fact that the euro/dollar ratio grows continuously contributes to the sinking process but the management of Keilwerth did not play this one right.
No more SX90, entry level prices higher than Selmer, etc... Does not seem a way to win new customers to get out of troubles.

If you were a dealer would you bet on them?

heath

· #10 · May 11, 2007

Keilwerths strategy was not to let businesses buy up JK's in bulk at a sharp discount. I guess this was to prevent guys like wwbw from selling at a far lower cost than everyone else.

Also JK expects payment in a 30 days from distributors, Selmer gives 12 months. You can't move these horns that fast.

As far as the SX90 line it takes no effort at all to release these horns before the tone hole rings have been soldered on. If not for a $1000 less than surely they could offer them for $500 less for those that have no interest in the (R) upgrade.

A lot of people have a problem buying JK when you can get a Yani or Yami for $2500 brand new. JKs SX90 line was the only sane approach to competing with the Asians.

G

· #11 · May 11, 2007

When I started working in the Middle East (five years ago), you needed 0.80 US dollars to buy one euro worth of goods. Today, because of the falling value of the US dollar, you'd need about 1.30 US dollars to buy the same one euro worth of goods. That's why European-made goods are getting more expensive in the US, while US-made goods are cheaper in Europe.

I remember this, because I get paid in the equivalent to US dollars. Now, when the price of Keilwerth saxophones go up, it's not necessarily because the company is greedy for more profit, although that's still a possibility.

I bought a Keilwerth in November last year from an online shop in the UK. Because the value of the US dollar has dropped since then, the same sax costs 6% more today. The UK shop hasn't raised its prices, just that my money is worth less (not yet worthless

).

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heath

· #12 · May 12, 2007

It does look like WWBW is getting rid of their current JK horns. Of course they're claiming 40% off all these horns........40% off list price that is. Their currently trying to sell the (R) horns for $4300....wow big savings. I did see where they're selling a few of the SX90 tenors for $2300 which is a good price these days....those disappeared over night however.

Who knows what's going on. All I know is I want a Nickel Silver tenor for $2500 without rolled tone holes.

Joe Jazz

· #13 · May 12, 2007

heath said:
It does look like WWBW is getting rid of their current JK horns. Of course they're claiming 40% off all these horns........40% off list price that is. Their currently trying to sell the (R) horns for $4300....wow big savings. I did see where they're selling a few of the SX90 tenors for $2300 which is a good price these days....those disappeared over night however.

Who knows what's going on. All I know is I want a Nickel Silver tenor for $2500 without rolled tone holes.

Well, maybe they'll make one especially for you before they go out of business....

sycc

Discussion Starter · #14 · May 12, 2007

heath said:
It does look like WWBW is getting rid of their current JK horns. Of course they're claiming 40% off all these horns........40% off list price that is. Their currently trying to sell the (R) horns for $4300....wow big savings. I did see where they're selling a few of the SX90 tenors for $2300 which is a good price these days....those disappeared over night however.

Who knows what's going on. All I know is I want a Nickel Silver tenor for $2500 without rolled tone holes.

USA horn had one for $2800 around 2 months ago. It sold immediately. Check USA horn's sold archives.

sycc

Discussion Starter · #15 · May 12, 2007

My daughter has a SX-90 tenor(rousseau new classic 3 mouthpiece w/ no 2 hemke reed). She won 1st place($500)classical music foundation sholarship.. She is in grade 5(age 11). I like the low end(due to the wide bow and big bell). I a/b my daughter's sx-90 vs my selmer USA Omega tenor(sterling silver neck). I thought tyhe selmer had a sweeter high register and midrange. The SX-90 won hands down for the low end. I was quite tempted to purchase the nickel SX-90 tenor that Mark had at USA but funds are lacking(for a good reason-got my daughters saxes{check my sycc info }). Still tempted to get one if gets another one. Although my USA selmer plays quite well after it's repad and new sterling silver neck.

heath

· #16 · May 12, 2007

It's not just the larger bow/bell of the SX90 that makes the horn standout. The JK has a bigger bore on the body tube and neck tenon.

It's a completely different experience than the Selmer. For me the JK has the bigger sound of the two and is much more free blowing. I could leave my Selmers in their cases permanently and stick to playing nothing but JK. It's just too bad that others won't try these horns because of the misinformation about how these horns play and feel. I use to the think they had awkward ergos and a stuffy sound, but you have to play it for a few weeks before you realize that the design of these horns is genius.

Joe Jazz

· #17 · May 12, 2007

Actually, I am grateful for the situation. I've been chronically tempted to get another Shadow alto(getting rid of mine was one of my dumbest moves)while they could be had for $3,995 from Matthews Music. Lucky for me they just went up by about $500, so now I won't be tempted. It makes sense, can't sell them at the present price, so let's raise the price:? ! Of course I can still get one elsewhere on closeout, but no telling how many people had it on trial and how beat up it will be......

Pannonia

· #18 · May 12, 2007

The devaluation of the dollar helps improve the trade imbalance. Trouble is that there are so few goods manufactured in the US that you can sell on the world market.

Back to JK, they will limp along. Perhaps JK will make most of their money selling Asian student horns like B&S does capitalizing on the recognition and reputation of their brand name.

I think it is the key work that turned off most prospective owners. Had it been a little more compact like the B&S or Selmer many more people would have bought them. Their sound is second to none for me.

Neil Sharpe

· #19 · May 12, 2007

If you're looking for a SX-90, consider this:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=58598

DaveKessler

· #20 · May 12, 2007

Keilwerth is now distributed by Sonare Winds in the USA.

Sonare has made the choice to not sell to WWBW. They had their reasons for this.

Sonare has also increased the MAP pricing on Keilwerths to bring them closer to Selmer's selling prices. However, dealer cost has stayed pretty much stable.

I personally have voiced my concerns to Sonare about the inflated MAPs on the Keilwerths but who knows.

We will stock the Shadow and the Brushed Nickel Silver versions. I currently have the following Keilwerth horns in stock:

Alto:
SX90R Lacquer
SX90R-NS Brushed Nickel Silver

Tenor:
SX90 Lacquer
SX90 Black
SX90-NS Brushed Nickel Silver
Shadow

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