[SpaceGuppy]

The title of my post pretty much sums up the question that I was asked the other day and I didn't know enough to give a good answer. When improvising, when to use the Melodic or the Harmonic Minor scales? The answer might be beyond my limited depth and understanding of Music theory but I figure I would ask anyway.

And maybe a good book for explaining this kind of thing? I have the Mark Levine Jazz Theory book but I haven't read it yet.

Thanks for whatever help the community can be.

 

[Pete Thomas]

These mostly fit with a tonic minor and as such they are reasonably interchangeable.

But you need to know the context.

Say you have

Dm7 G7 Cm there is an A in the Dm7, so theoretically a harmonic minor of C has a wrong note. However it can sound OK as a blue note if you want some "crunch"

Over the G7, a harmonic minor of C will probably work best, even if there is a G9, again it can sound bluesy. But sometimes context might dictate that the Ab against the A would sound bad. However it's most common in a minor key to have a b9 rather than a natural 9.

If the sequence is definitely Dmø (Dm7 b5) G7 b9 to Cm then a harmonic is what you want over the Dø and G7b9, though once you've resolved to the Cm, playing an A can give an interesting flavour.

If your sequence is Dm7 G7 C maj, or Dø G7 b9 Cmaj, the harmonic C minor is fine over the II V (nice and bluesy, but then back to the major when it resolves to C.

 

[Jazzaferri]

Melodic minor scales and harmony are a wonderfully different IMO more exotic sound than harmonic minor. The main difference is there are no avoid notes in melodic minor harmony. If you have mm changes then so long as the changes are within the key you can play the mm scale notes without worrying about which ones you hold on nearly as much.

In the key of C the melodic minor chords are

I CminMaj II Dsusb9 III EbMaj#4#5 (the lydian augmented chord is usually written as just Ebmaj#5) IV F7#11 V CminMaj/G VI Amin7b5 VII B7alt

so if you were to see the progression Bmin7b5 Esusb9 DminMaj/A then you would know that you are seeing a VI II V in D melodic minor which has just the C# and you could play the notes of the D melodic minor scale without worrying about "avoid" notes

 

[piwikiwi]

Melodic minor scales and harmony are a wonderfully different IMO more exotic sound than harmonic minor. The main difference is there are no avoid notes in melodic minor harmony. If you have mm changes then so long as the changes are within the key you can play the mm scale notes without worrying about which ones you hold on nearly as much.

In the key of C the melodic minor chords are

I CminMaj II Dsusb9 III EbMaj#4#5 (the lydian augmented chord is usually written as just Ebmaj#5) IV F7#11 V CminMaj/G VI Amin7b5 VII B7alt

so if you were to see the progression Bmin7b5 Esusb9 DminMaj/A then you would know that you are seeing a VI II V in D melodic minor which has just the C# and you could play the notes of the D melodic minor scale without worrying about "avoid" notes

I always thought that the description avoid notes was useless, there are no avoid notes in a major scales, just notes that need to resolve. You can always use all notes some just sound more dissonant and need stronger resolutions.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I always thought that the description avoid notes was useless,

I agree it's useless once you get to a certain level, ie you know how to use them. But for beginners it can be best to avoid them until they know how to handle them.

 

[piwikiwi]

I agree it's useless once you get to a certain level, ie you know how to use them. But for beginners it can be best to avoid them until they know how to handle them.

I understand your point but I don't understand why all those books(levine, aebersold) insist on using this method. It would save people a lot of confusion if they would just gradually introduce people to voice leading/chord tone resolution thing. i was really frustrated for a time because I noticed that my playing with the scales was nothing like the people I listened to but all the books told me it was the right way.

 

[JL]

so if you were to see the progression Bmin7b5 Esusb9 DminMaj/A then you would know that you are seeing a VI II V in D melodic minor which has just the C# and you could play the notes of the D melodic minor scale without worrying about "avoid" notes

I would think anyone who understands those chords and that progression would be well beyond needing to worry about 'avoid' notes.

To my simple mind, melodic minor is a sound, mostly defined by the 'major-minor chord' and the sound of that maj 7th over a minor tonality. For example, the' A section' of Harlem Nocturne.

So when to use melodic minor? When you want that sound. When to use harmonic minor? When you want that sound.

 

[Jazzaferri]

You are probably right however the OP was asking for guidance in this area and not everyone is completely comfortable with mm harmony

AVoid notes well try playing whole note Eb while the pianist is playing a whole note Cmajor triad and the concept becomes obvious. If one truly means to say that dissonance fine and dandy.

Even Levine defines avoid notes as"handle with care" notes

 

[bariandyf]

These mostly fit with a tonic minor and as such they are reasonably interchangeable.

But you need to know the context.

Say you have

Dm7 G7 Cm there is an A in the Dm7, so theoretically a harmonic minor of C has a wrong note. However it can sound OK as a blue note if you want some "crunch"

Over the G7, a harmonic minor of C will probably work best, even if there is a G9, again it can sound bluesy. But sometimes context might dictate that the Ab against the A would sound bad. However it's most common in a minor key to have a b9 rather than a natural 9.

If the sequence is definitely Dmø (Dm7 b5) G7 b9 to Cm then a harmonic is what you want over the Dø and G7b9, though once you've resolved to the Cm, playing an A can give an interesting flavour.

If your sequence is Dm7 G7 C maj, or Dø G7 b9 Cmaj, the harmonic C minor is fine over the II V (nice and bluesy, but then back to the major when it resolves to C.

This is spot on - but I have to put everything into very simple terms for an easy to remember 'rule of thumb' and the way it was described to me was "over a II V play the harmonic minor scale of the I". And I can get my head around that ok.

 

[Pete Thomas]

This is spot on - but I have to put everything into very simple terms for an easy to remember 'rule of thumb' and the way it was described to me was "over a II V play the harmonic minor scale of the I". And I can get my head around that ok.

Yes, rather than thinking of scales per chord as is often taught these days, I like to think of scale per key centre.

But never scales played purely as scales without attempting to use melodic construction and voice leading. Of course at times you play scale passages, but it's always important to think whether the on beat notes are chord tones or suspensions or whatever.

When people use the scale/mode method for "scales that fit chords" it can go wrong very quickly if you don't have this basic understanding of what the chord tones are that you are attempting to "fit" the scale over.

When using melodic construction, the scales are there as a pool of notes to choose from. And if you choose notes outside that pool, it's fine provided you know what you are doing, but using the pool is a good starting point.

 

[JL]

AVoid notes well try playing whole note Eb while the pianist is playing a whole note Cmajor triad and the concept becomes obvious. If one truly means to say that dissonance fine and dandy.

Even Levine defines avoid notes as"handle with care" notes

Absolutely, I agree. But of course you can play that Eb as a passing tone.

I think using harmonic minor, of the tonic, over a ii-V fits best in a minor key, right?

iimi7b5-V7-imi

 

[SpaceGuppy]

Thanks to all for the participation in the answer. I have a better understanding now and a bit of information with which I can go forward and learn some more. My Brother who I originally ask me this question thanks everyone as well.

 

[whaler]

You use them when you hear them.

 

[bakkiemetkoekie]

Melodic up and harmonic down. This is how violinplayers practicing minor which is not a bad idea. I,III and VI chord (in minor)have relation with tonic function, there you can put your melodic scale.
If you are in the second or fifth bar of the blues in C ( F7 or IV7) you can also play Cminor melodic! So you have to practice every chord in melodic minor and every chord in harmonic minor and name them and then try to see and hear connections with the tunes you want to play. (Important is also to do it with the major harmonic).

 

[evan1]

The title of my post pretty much sums up the question that I was asked the other day and I didn't know enough to give a good answer. When improvising, when to use the Melodic or the Harmonic Minor scales? The answer might be beyond my limited depth and understanding of Music theory but I figure I would ask anyway.

And maybe a good book for explaining this kind of thing? I have the Mark Levine Jazz Theory book but I haven't read it yet.

Thanks for whatever help the community can be.

SGUPPY - An answer to your question is to use them over a minor II V I (the harmonic minor provides the modes and chords for this), seperately over a II M7 B5, V7 or I Min 7. Or in a modal fashion over minor chords.

 

[piwikiwi]

You are probably right however the OP was asking for guidance in this area and not everyone is completely comfortable with mm harmony

AVoid notes well try playing whole note Eb while the pianist is playing a whole note Cmajor triad and the concept becomes obvious. If one truly means to say that dissonance fine and dandy.

Even Levine defines avoid notes as"handle with care" notes

If you play an e after that it will sound a lot better. it's all about context

 

[Jazzaferri]

Defining and resolving dissonnace ... inside outside etc etc absolutely all about context

Funny how 500 years ago singing a tritone could get one roasting over a a fire now ending a solo on one is almost passe. :mrgreen:

 

[Pete Thomas]

What is one of the cool things about a harmonic minor? (EDITED, I originally typed melodic in error)

Extra voice leading.

Say you have E7 to A, the G# obviously leads nicely up to A, but you also have the nice chromatic F (b9) down to E, and if it happens to be over a major key centre (A major), then of course you have the blusiness of the minor (C rather than C#)

Of course that last point also applies to melodic minor.

 

[saxpiece]

What is one of the cool things about a melodic minor?

Do you mean A harmonic minor for E7 to A?

A - B - C - D - E - F - G# - A

 

[Pete Thomas]

Do you mean A harmonic minor for E7 to A?

A - B - C - D - E - F - G# - A

Yes, I have now edited my mistake. Thanks.