[JohnMarkPainter]

I am going to spend some time figuring this out.
I have a mouthpiece that seems to have to be pulled out really far (small chamber?).
I was also having intonation problems.

Does a mouthpiece being pulled out cause less stable pitch?
I am going to experiment with stiffer reeds and triple check the it isn't just me.

Thoughts?

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

Oh yeah...I'll be double checking my pitch with mouthpiece only.

 

[J-Moen]

I had this issue last month. My Mauriat and Daddy-O wasn't in tune unless the mouthpiece was almost completely off the neck. However, I got the neck recorked and sized to the mouthpiece. Basically center cork and everything is fine now.

I will say however, I had zero issues with instability in pitch with the old cork and moutbpiece almost all the way off. It played even and smooth and still a great tone. Also no major intonation issues.

 

[Aquarian]

There was a thread recently in the alto section where a poster talked about the acoustic properties. For what I understood, we're basically playing a cone, and when the mouthpiece is too far out it changes that shape. The end result is wide octaves and being sharp on high notes. How your mouthpiece affects that cone depends on chamber size and shape.

So yes, if you are too far out and sharp at the top, you can sometimes correct that by pushing in. Check that your octaves match. I tried this and found it helps.

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

I think I had painted myself into a corner with embouchure fudging and a slightly soft reed.

I was recording fairly loud percussive soul parts that were hanging out around G-G# a lot.
My G was tending Flat and G# was sharp.

 

[Grumps]

Oh yeah...I'll be double checking my pitch with mouthpiece only.

Don't waste your time with this. Though I won't get into it here, there are numerous posts questioning the value and application of such absurdity. Just tell us what mouthpiece you're using and on what type/brand of horn. Then maybe we can help.

 

[turf3]

When you pull out too far, the tone holes aren't in the right place. Short tube notes will be flat (too far from the tip of the MP) by comparison to long tube notes. The saxophone is designed for the tip of the mouthpiece to be at a certain distance from the tone holes. The chamber volume of the mouthpiece will affect whether that position gives you A=440 or some other pitch.

I also believe two corrolaries:

1) I think that disturbing the overall shape of the horn with the MP out too far (it's basically a cone with a bulge on the end to simulate the cut-off tip of the cone) can cause strange anomalies on individual notes - the well documented sharp middle E and F of the Conn 12M goes away when you use a larger chamber piece and push in - and I think it can also contribute to "warbling" on low notes like the well documented low D problem of Conn 10M.

2) I also suspect though I can't prove it, that pulling too far out tends to cause more issues of general intonation trends and wonky individual notes, than does pushing too far in. I have no theory on why this might be so.

Don't let how far the piece sits on the cork confuse you about how far it's pulled out. Different pieces have different shank lengths. The only measurement that means anything is the distance from the MP tip to a registration feature on the horn (I generally use the octave pip). Different shank lengths is why I take all the business about mouthpiece pitch alone with a block of salt.

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

Interesting....

It’s a 10M with a GW mouthpiece made from. rufault blank.
It is described as having a medium horseshoe shaped chamber.

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

Also interesting is that I was having the low warble D the day before.
I had to play a very soft repeating line that ended with 2 soft separated low D’s.
Drove me crazy...kept chirping 🙂

 

[turf3]

Your problems on that 10M will be reduced, I predict, with an Otto Link or Meyer hard rubber. Don't let anyone tell you that you need more than that to be heard on a 10M, it's one of the loudest tenors ever made. But if you just have to have more get a Dukoff D7 (or a modern day equivalent not made of butter) and you'll be set.

 

[mijderf]

I think it is pretty common for a 10M to warble when the mouthpiece is too far out. I had this problem a few years ago when I first picked up a tenor. I was very sharp, and had to pull the mouthpiece out near the tip, where intonation seemed better, but a low D warble appeared. I then played just my mouthpiece and neck, with the mouthpiece near the center of the cork, and registered a concert F instead of concert E. I then relaxed my embouchure until I got the mouthpiece and neck to a concert E, and then focused on maintaining that embouchure pressure. It did not take long to play in tune on the 10M with my mouthpiece near the center of the cork, and the low D warble disappeared. In all fairness, I had originally played clarinet and alto, and was trying to use that type embouchure pressure on tenor, and that may have strongly contributed to the pitch problem when I started playing tenor a few years ago.

 

[saxoclese]

If the played pitch of the mouthpiece + neck matches the calculated natural resonant frequency of a cone beginning at the neck receiver and extending to an apex, the saxophone behaves harmonically and acoustically as if there were a completed cone at its end. When this condition is met along with the effective volume of the mouthpiece being a close match to the calculated volume of the "missing cone" the saxophone plays the best it can play. For most tenor saxophones the pitch of the mouthpiece + neck should be close to an E concert---F#2 on the sax. For most altos the pitch of the mouthpiece + neck should be close to Ab concert---F2 on the sax. When playing lower on the mouthpiece input pitch, the mouthpiece is pushed farther onto the cork to meet this requirement and to play in tune at A=440. When playing higher on the mouthpiece input pitch the mouthpiece is pulled farther off the cork to meet this requirement and play in tune at A=440. This only works up to a point.

On the alto the pitch on the mouthpiece alone should be no higher than A=880. When tightening the embouchure (biting) to play above this pitch, the tone sounds pinched and the tendency of some notes and registers to play sharp is exacerbated. On the tenor the pitch on the mouthpiece alone should be no higher than G concert. Tightening the embouchure to play above this pitch produces the same effects described on the alto. If anyone is unsure if this is true, it is easy to test. Pick up your saxophone and try it. Anyone who has played in a saxophone section next to a clarinet player who taught himself to play sax using a clarinet embouchure and plays near the top of the mouthpiece pitch knows exactly what happens to the pitch in the upper register and the sound.

 

[Grumps]

It's a 10M with a GW mouthpiece made from. rufault blank.

It's a known quirk for those horns. You need something with a larger chamber that'll push in a bit further and help voice problematic notes down low. Trust someone who's had one of these horns for a while and don't go doing silly things like playing the mouthpiece alone. The only worthwhile exercise for doing that is to cup your hands over the end of it and try to play Yankee Doodle. Just 'cause it's fun.

 

[hakukani]

Here's an article that explains this pretty well. I agree that a 10m really needs a large chamber mouthpiece.

http://www.steveduke.net/articles/mouthpiece.shtml

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

Excellent.
NOW I know why I liked the Bari HR.
Intonation is pretty easy with that one.

It's a known quirk for those horns. You need something with a larger chamber that'll push in a bit further and help voice problematic notes down low. Trust someone who's had one of these horns for a while and don't go doing silly things like playing the mouthpiece alone. The only worthwhile exercise for doing that is to cup your hands over the end of it and try to play Yankee Doodle. Just 'cause it's fun.

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

THANKS!
I am a Clarinet/Trumpet player
That's why I like having a frame of reference like this.
Particularly if I using softer reeds...its a tonal minefield

If the played pitch of the mouthpiece + neck matches the calculated natural resonant frequency of a cone beginning at the neck receiver and extending to an apex, the saxophone behaves harmonically and acoustically as if there were a completed cone at its end. When this condition is met along with the effective volume of the mouthpiece being a close match to the calculated volume of the "missing cone" the saxophone plays the best it can play. For most tenor saxophones the pitch of the mouthpiece + neck should be close to an E concert---F#2 on the sax. For most altos the pitch of the mouthpiece + neck should be close to Ab concert---F2 on the sax. When playing lower on the mouthpiece input pitch, the mouthpiece is pushed farther onto the cork to meet this requirement and to play in tune at A=440. When playing higher on the mouthpiece input pitch the mouthpiece is pulled farther off the cork to meet this requirement and play in tune at A=440. This only works up to a point.

On the alto the pitch on the mouthpiece alone should be no higher than A=880. When tightening the embouchure (biting) to play above this pitch, the tone sounds pinched and the tendency of some notes and registers to play sharp is exacerbated. On the tenor the pitch on the mouthpiece alone should be no higher than G concert. Tightening the embouchure to play above this pitch produces the same effects described on the alto. If anyone is unsure if this is true, it is easy to test. Pick up your saxophone and try it. Anyone who has played in a saxophone section next to a clarinet player who taught himself to play sax using a clarinet embouchure and plays near the top of the mouthpiece pitch knows exactly what happens to the pitch in the upper register and the sound.

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

Hah...I Was playing an F
I'll work on that for a few days

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

So yeah...looser (not biting), mouthpiece in farther. Stiffer reed. Works great

 

[MojoBari]

I play a late 60’s 10M. I have better success overall with a medium small chamber. Otherwise my palm keys go sharp. I tend to subtone for soft low notes.

 

[John Kotches]

saxoclese:

It's good to have the mouthpiece plus neck reference pitches. For me, I just can't do the mouthpiece alone. It works but it's abrasive to my ears.


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