[Graysax]

This is mostly a follow up to my other thread about overhaul/repad frequency.

It seems like many leave sealing pads alone. This begs the question, and I open this one to fellow techs for their opinion alike, when is a pad considered bad?

There are the obvious optical reasons as when the skin is ripped exposing the felt beneath, however thought about the pad that has hardened felt and is rock hard as a result. At a NAPBIRT clinic, repair guru Ed Kraus was talking about hard pads on a clarinet, and he had his Mag machine on it, and set it down. That bump in motion caused a momentary leak. Softer pads didn't do that. Stack keys when they close can make that bump and cause a closed, hardened pad to momentary leak.

Thoughts?

Personally I feel a fresher pad is for forgiving and allow for small imperfections, but thats just me. I don't want pillows for pads, nor do i want steel. Just a nice firm, fresh pad. Even on closed holes.

 

[JayeLID]

Good question.... and I actually lean towards giving old pads som luv. A lot of techs will simply go by aesthetic appearance of the pad and say "needs to be changed".

As you say, in obvious circumstances aesthetics can be a guide (you gave some examples)....but I will say IMHO, I somewhat regularly 'keep' existing pads which to other techs might appear (visually) 'shot'...simply because they are still performing quite decently. This sometimes means actually 'refloating' the existing pad (oftentimes by removing and adding a bit of shellac). Things like stains and discoloration, that doesn't mean much to me. I wanna feel how the leather-felt combo is holding up, I wanna see how the pad seals on the hole.

It is sorta up to the client as well..some folks are just plain 'bothered' by an ugly-looking pad. Some do not like the 'feel' of old and new pads mixed together, they want a uniform 'pop' when they press the keys all thru the horn.
Others are solely concerned with getting the horn playing respectably and reliably up and down, and could care less about whether some of the pads are not spankin' new, or even OK if a few look 'toe'up'....

On most horns I sell if a prospective buyer seems to be showing some hesitation or inquisitiveness over a mixed-pad horn, I will offer to do a complete repad for a slightly add'l sum if it would alleviate their concerns (even though I may feel the horn is performing quite fine and will continue to for quite a while).

 

[jgreiner]

For me, there are a few reason's I'll either change or leave a pad.
1. If the pad is full of crusty....."stuff".....and I can get the majority of it off with Naptha, etc, AND it still seals AND it's not rock hard, I'll leave it.
2. If there's a leak and I can successfully re-float the pad to attain a good seal, I'll leave it.
3. Even if the pad looks good but re-floating fails, I replace. For me, the biggest reason re-floating fails is because (I find this out after I remove the pad) there is honestly little to no shellac or hot glue in the pad cup. How that pad even was staying in the cup sometimes surprises me.

I agree with Jaye that it can also be up to a customer if they desire the same "feel" throughout the horn. Older pads that have hardened a tad mixed with new pads that definitely have a different feel/pop sometimes doesn't matter to a customer. Sometimes it does.

 

[1saxman]

Things are different now. 40 years ago I would play for months with rock-hard palm key pads and the B2 cut through all the way around the sealing ring. But after getting way too many pad jobs and 'overhauls' over the last 20 years, my plan now is too avoid the 'overhaul' altogether and just get 'play condition' tune-ups or pad jobs. I suggest getting yourself a set of the pads your tech put in last so if you have an emergency you won't have to wait for him to order them. Then when it comes time for a pad job he can use up the ones you have left over which most likely will be most of them, especially the larger ones.
When I got my latest MK VI tenor (186xxx made in '71) in 1998, it still had many of its original pads, mostly below G. Whoever had been working on it definitely had the strategy of doing the least to the sax as long as it retained it's sound and playability. I really wish I had continued with that minimalist strategy and had been more selective in who I let touch it.

 

[Graysax]

That begs the next question, If a pad is hardened, it is not ripped, yet seals, do you think there is a need for it to be changed. I'm kinda 50/50 on that with the other pads and their condition. I do feel that in a perfect world, it would get changed. Not so sure about the average Joe in a realistic world.

 

[Graysax]

The other thing that I was taught years ago, it might be time saving just to replace a pad rather than make an old one seat. It will certainly last longer.

 

[JayeLID]

That begs the next question, If a pad is hardened, it is not ripped, yet seals, do you think there is a need for it to be changed. I'm kinda 50/50 on that with the other pads and their condition. I do feel that in a perfect world, it would get changed. Not so sure about the average Joe in a realistic world.

I'd leave it up to the client, if one is a walk-in tech shop.

The other thing that I was taught years ago, it might be time saving just to replace a pad rather than make an old one seat. It will certainly last longer.

Yes/no, IMHO. If the refloat doesn't work (and again I will usually do this by removing the existing pad, checking the amount of shellac/glue and if necessary adding some, then replacing and reheating - although I know some just give a try by heating the keycup and hoping there's enough shellac still under there)....I'll usually stop there and not try to massage the existing pad any further.

I guess an argument would be if you are trying to save the existing pad, it'd be less work than installing a new one since you'd then have to seat the new one and also very likely have to redo the regulating corks/materials. Sometimes with an existing pad you can keep the existing regulating materials and at most tweak 'em slightly (sand down or add another layer of cork or teflon sheet).

But then, as you intimate, I have had old pads, refloated, initially seem to behave, then after a day or two or four they start to go back to their old habit....one reason why I never wanna send a horn out inside 48 hours of the pad work....

3. Even if the pad looks good but re-floating fails, I replace.

Yes this is something which is seldom mentioned.
I have come across plenty of VERY uncooperative existing pads which 'look' and 'feel' (to the touch) quite fine...and are even on the newish side....yet they came in leaking and after an initial attempt, they are still leaking. Although they look to have tons of life left in 'em, if a newish pad is giving me that sorta trouble, it's gone...ain't gonna mickey-mouse around with it more just because it 'looks' to be far on the good side of half-life.

 

[1saxman]

I think if a horn comes to you with hard palm key or other top pads you should strongly recommend replacement. After all, its right there in the shop. Torn pads too. I have played years recently with a petrified palm D but since I have developed a new strategy, I would replace it as soon as I discovered it. My new strategy is take the horn to the doc at least every year instead of waiting for it to get touchy.

 

[saxoclese]

Leather has been chosen as an ideal covering for saxophone pads because of its "supple" texture. When the leather starts to harden or become brittle it not longer has that quality that insures an airtight seal over the tonehole. For me personally, I am loathe to put a fresh new pad in a stack key alongside pads that have begun to harden when they have to be regulated to close together. I have done so on "budget" play conditions in the past and have never been happy with the result.

Part of my training as an apprentice was to prepare the returned rental saxes and clarinets to be rented out again. The standard I was given to decide when to replace a pad was to judge whether it looked like it would hold up for another year or not. This reasoning took into account not just the current condition of the pad, but its projected "reliability" as well. In my own saxophone repair, I use the same criteria when doing "play conditions" for my customers because in my view the main thing they are paying me for is to insure their instrument is dependable.

 

[Jazz Is All]

I had a friend who was a flight steward for Flying Tiger airline for many years. That's the company that transports U.S: Miltary family members for a very low cost. He flew the route from San Francisco to Tokyo and Seoul Korea. Naturally the food was not first-class quality nor even up to tourist class standards on other airlines. So occasionally they would get a passenger who complained and sad the food was bad. At that my friend, and the other steward if he was nearby would look at the food on the person's tray table, and while shaking their fingers at it as you would to a child or a dog, intone "Bad Food. Bad Food. Bad Food". The OT of this thread made me think of that because other than taking the horn to your tech to get the recalcitrent pad replaced, shaking your finger at it is about all you can do sometimes.

Hence I propose you show the naughty pad this meme in hopes of it straightening up and behaving correctly.