Sax on the Web Forum banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,979 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
...made in France.

I bought this around a year ago on eFlay for virtually nothing. Just finished refurbing it.

This one has me completely stumped. Stamped "Made in France" above the bell/bow ferrule, 4 digit serial # stamped vertically. NOT the usual "Malerne-esque" Italian/FRench stencil sorta body by any means. Has high F#. Pinky table reminiscent of a Buffet, but other details notsomuch....

Anyone wanna take a shot ? I am more posting for posterity, in case anyone ever sees another....
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,979 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Mmmmm...yeah, interesting.... it has some resemblances on some of the details....but the body gauge is significantly heftier than any Pierret I have ever encountered. So are the key castings. But indeed the spat touches do seem a bit Pierret-ish.

Also, the Tenon diameter is HUGE....29 mm. Never have I seen a Tenor with as large a tenon, although some old Holtons came close.

More pics....

Interesting/odd octave mech, see-saw variety but the stem is rather huge and long.....also, the key benches (aka 'back bars') of the lower stack F# and upper stack C are cylindrical....nothing too strange about that, but the key FEET of the other stack keys are semi-cylindrical (flat bottoms, arched tops)...which means the contact point of the bench/bar and the top of the key foot is two rounded surfaces meeting....made it a little unusual to regulate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,709 Posts
My opinion is that it's a Maurice Boiste-made horn. You can read up a lot more about them here. Helen's also got two articles on her website. (And yes, I do agree that my Boiste pics on saxpics.com were categorized incorrectly. I don't own saxpics.com anymore, so I can't exactly change that.)

1. First, we do know that Boiste made stencils for other folks.
2. The neck brace on some Boistes are identical to the Troubador.
3. The G#/C#/B/Bb cluster on some Boistes is identical.
4. The keyguards on the bell look just about the same. Helen and I don't have a bazillion Boiste horns listed in our gallery, but I don't see a problem with saying that the keyguards evolved into what's on the Troubador or if stencils had them a little made-to-order.
5. Some Boistes also had that right side altissimo F# key (see #4 pic).
6. The bell-to-body brace looks close enough to the Troubador, especially on this horn.
7. Four-digit serial number's not a problem. Luthier Vents (above link) says Boiste probably stopped around 10xxx.

Overall, I'm pretty OK with saying it's a Boiste-made horn, unless someone has a better guess. I might look for some more Boiste pics in the future and upload to the gallery.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2017
Joined
·
2,000 Posts
Was going to also say Pierret with the two bell tone holes/guards being so close together.
 

·
Distinguished Member and Bass Sax Extraordinaire
Joined
·
958 Posts
FWIW, I see nothing on this horn that looks Pierret to me, but I do agree with Pete that it definitely has that Boiste vibe to it.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2014
Joined
·
2,600 Posts
In the 1960's, Troubador was the registered trademark for instruments distributed by Worldwide Musical Instrument Co. Inc. in New York, one of the very large import and export musical instrument wholesalers. The fact that they actually went to the trouble of federally registering Troubador as as their trademark for saxophones and the way Troubador is engraved on the Martin makes me wonder if this Martin "model" was actually an exclusive stencil for a major wholesaler (like the Martin Dick Stabile model was for Sorkin Music). My old Purchaser's Guide to the Music Industries also says that Worldwide was the exclusive importers of Concerto "student line" alto and tenor saxophones. I don't know anything about Concerto, but finding them might give a clue as to the manufacturer of the OP's Troubador sax. As with other wholesalers, it appears that they could switch manufacturers depending on the market. While we associate Troubador with Martin, Worldwide may not have.

I need to find an older Purchaser's Guide.

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,709 Posts
I think it's a bit of a mistake to say, "Horn X was named Y, thus all horns named Y must have been made by manufacturer Z." As an example, DABICO horns were made by at least four different companies, if not more -- and I think it's more. I've got a couple threads scattered about where I've seen at least a dozen different stencils with the name "Vega." However, here's a Pierret Concerto, if you want to go down that road:D

I don't have anything to say for or against Mark's comment on the Dick Stablie models, other than they're Martin stencils and that they're supposed to be relatively decent. As far as the Troubador comment is concerned, I'm not aware of a 1960s Martin-made horn named that. I think of the 1930s Handcraft Troubador. Mind you, I don't really look at or for stencils or student horns. Mark, if you've got a pic of one, I'd like to see it.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2014
Joined
·
2,600 Posts
Pete,

My point was the same as yours about DABICO (Dayton Band Instrument Company), except that I used Sorkin Music as my example of a musical instrument wholesale company that used various manufacturers over the years for its saxophones. Sorkin had Martin stencil its Dick Stabile model for it. A few years later, Sorkin had Kohlert and Beaugnier stencil horns for its Revere models. A big instrument wholesaler didn't worry about who made the horn, only that it met its quality/price requirements and carried its house trademark.

In the 1960's, which is when I am guessing the above Troubador was made, that trademark was registered to Worldwide. The Martin Troubador was long gone. Coincidentally (or not), Worldwide also held a registered trademark for Concerto saxophones, a line of saxophones you have identified as manufactured by Pierret. While this doesn't mean that Worldwide sourced Troubador saxophones at the same manufacturer, it is worth a close look at Pierret (which I have never done).

Mark View attachment 226234
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,709 Posts
Mark Fleming said:
Worldwide also held a registered trademark for Concerto saxophones, a line of saxophones you have identified as manufactured by Pierret.
That's not quite right, Mark. To be very specific, Pierret had a saxophone model named "Concerto." I have done no other research of any kind on that make/model saxophone nor on who distributed them in the the US.

====

Why do I even care? Well, on one level I don't. I'm happy finding and categorizing pictures of pretty saxophones and some other instruments. I find that relaxing. If the stuff I post on my website and/or other places helps folks, that makes me happy. On another level, I'd like to help you, Mark, and/or anyone else that wants to do research, because I developed some bad habits when I did research on companies, rather than just instruments. The number one thing I learned is that unless I can document it, it's an opinion, not a fact. That's why I try to preface my comments with, "It's my opinion ..." then give specific reasons why it's my opinion. That's all.

Going back to categorizing pictures of pretty horns, now.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
·
38,843 Posts
Maurice Boiste, a bit like this one, typical neck (the brace and general elongated shape looks a bit like early Borgani, or SML or late King), different LH table

View attachment 237990
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top