[JohnMarkPainter]

I’ve been an inexperienced player for a long time

I got a new Bari HB .110 Baritone mouthpiece today.
My other mouthpiece are a Meltalite M7 and the generic small tip that came with the horn (70’s painted Bundy).

I have Rico Royale 2 1/2 and VanDoren 3.
I tried the 3 first...airy, terrible...I thought I was going to have to ditch the mouthpiece.

I then tried the 2 1/2. Played GREAT. Drastic difference, couldn’t have been better.
I Reed Geeked the back of the 3. It wasn’t flat...it actually played better but still terrible.

I tried a different 3 just to see if it was a bum reed. Same result.
What kind of issues should I look for other than it just not being right for ME with that mouthpiece?

 

[J-Moen]

I've been an inexperienced player for a long time

I got a new Bari HB .110 Baritone mouthpiece today.
My other mouthpiece are a Meltalite M7 and the generic small tip that came with the horn (70's painted Bundy).

I have Rico Royale 2 1/2 and VanDoren 3.
I tried the 3 first...airy, terrible...I thought I was going to have to ditch the mouthpiece.

I then tried the 2 1/2. Played GREAT. Drastic difference, couldn't have been better.
I Reed Geeked the back of the 3. It wasn't flat...it actually played better but still terrible.

I tried a different 3 just to see if it was a bum reed. Same result.
What kind of issues should I look for other than it just not being right for ME with that mouthpiece?

This is pretty typical of a new mouthpiece. I used to swear by Vandoren Green Java 2.5s, which worked wonderfully on a ceramic drake mouthpiece, Jody Jazz DV NY, and plenty of other pieces. Then I bought a new Resin Drake NY piece, and the Javas just weren't the same. I tried about 5 different brands and styles, and eventually settled onto RJS 2Mediums. But then I got my new piece, and didn't like those either, so now I'm using a Forestone Black Bamboo reed.

When doing mouthpiece swaps, I usually try to have some good reeds ready to go from multiple brands just for this exact reason. If you're playing great on the Rico Royale, then stick with them! Seems like you've already found the answer, and you could continue to try other reeds if you wanted.

If you want to continue with the vandorens, keep playing with the Reed Geek and see if you can get it to where you want. Ultimately, it may not be a good fit for the mpc.

 

[Sigmund451]

Are you using used or new reeds?

Never evaluate a piece with reeds from another. Reeds get broken into a certain curve and have memory. They will often be horrific on a different curve.

If you are using new reeds, as mentioned, experiment a bit. Dont count out that you could have a dud mpc.

Edit...didnt notice that 2.5 plays great.

If it works dont fix it.

 

[mijderf]

You might want to check the facing lengths of these two mouthpieces. The tip openings are similar, but the proper reed strength is often more dependent on facing length than tip size.

 

[Grumps]

Some reeds don't work well with any mouthpiece. Adjusting them may help. However, if your 2 1/2 reed works "GREAT", you really don't have a problem. Rather, you're looking for one. And that's never good. Will cause a lot of tail-chasing and wasting time, energy and money.

 

[turf3]

I've been an inexperienced player for a long time

I got a new Bari HB .110 Baritone mouthpiece today.
My other mouthpiece are a Meltalite M7 and the generic small tip that came with the horn (70's painted Bundy).

I have Rico Royale 2 1/2 and VanDoren 3.
I tried the 3 first...airy, terrible...I thought I was going to have to ditch the mouthpiece.

I then tried the 2 1/2. Played GREAT. Drastic difference, couldn't have been better.
I Reed Geeked the back of the 3. It wasn't flat...it actually played better but still terrible.

I tried a different 3 just to see if it was a bum reed. Same result.
What kind of issues should I look for other than it just not being right for ME with that mouthpiece?

First off, a RR 2.5 is a lot more than a perceived half step away from a VD3. VD reeds run hard.

Based on facing charts it looks like the tip opening of the new piece is about the same as the Metalite, but I have no idea about the facing length. For reference, I've been playing baritone as my main horn for 35 years and I use a Meyer 8 (also about 0.110"; no idea the facing length) and when I use Vandoren reeds I use a #2.5 (or 3s scraped down to about 2.5). I think you're trying to play too hard a reed on too open a MP with too short a facing for your chops.

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

I bet it is the facing.
I have zero understanding of that stuff.
I don’t HAVE to understand it but a little knowledge would be a good thing as I have ‘settled’ for things because I didn’t know how to correct them.

And yes, I could (and probably will) happily just use Rico Royale 2 1/2 and this mouthpiece forever.
I recorded it a bit. Plenty of top end, fat, not too stuffy...makes the Metalite sound like a Kazoo

I can FINALLY play softly and not just Muppet Show tone.

Baby steps.

 

[Jazzoetry]

Reed Placement can make a difference on how a mouthpiece and reed play.
Checkout this Reed Placement PDF article by Steven Mauk.
https://faculty.ithaca.edu/mauk/docs/reedplacement.pdf

 

[KeithL]

I agree with turf. Despite what the charts might say the way Vandoren bari reeds actually feel are much harder than the same strength Rico/ D'Addario. I play 3S & 3M RJS and 3 RR on pieces with .120 tips but really struggle with 2.5 or even 2 Vandoren Java and ZZ reeds on these same mouthpieces.

The other difference you feel is probably more about the amount of baffle in each piece as opposed to the facing curve. There are certainly different curves and they can have an effect on response but the baffles can have just as much effect or more. The Metalite has a very high baffle that drops into a medium throat and chamber that combination is going to respond more easily and, all other things equal, with a brighter sound than a piece with less baffle and a larger chamber. This is why you can take two pieces with the same tip opening and they respond so differently requiring a reed of different strength and/or different cut.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Just use 2 1/2s then. It seems youy onl;y tried two reeds though, it's very possible the 3 was just a dud. You need try a selection of a few reeds to really know whether the type/strength is good or not.

The main way a specific reed might be better on a mouthpiece (assuming it is the right strength for you) is that maybe there isd a mouthpiece issue such as a warp and by coincidence that reed also has a warp that complements it. Highly unlikely but possible.

I'd still stick with the assumption the 3 was too hard.

 

[1saxman]

'I then tried the 2 1/2. Played GREAT. Drastic difference, couldn’t have been better.'

As you discovered, reeds make a difference. Go with the reed that works with your mouthpiece and you. Problem solved. Oh, BTW, this is not a lifetime change. The typical 'reed discovery' lasts about three boxes, then its 'off to the hounds again'.

 

[Reet McVouty]

'I then tried the 2 1/2. Played GREAT. Drastic difference, couldn't have been better.'

As you discovered, reeds make a difference. Go with the reed that works with your mouthpiece and you. Problem solved. Oh, BTW, this is not a lifetime change. The typical 'reed discovery' lasts about three boxes, then its 'off to the hounds again'.

+1

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

Reed/Lig placement does help with this one but it still isn't right.
I also haven't soaked these reeds, but the 2 1/2 just works with no prep at all.

Thanks for that link. I am trying to find more good composite info like that

 

[Dr G]

I've been an inexperienced player for a long time

I got a new Bari HB .110 Baritone mouthpiece today.
My other mouthpiece are a Meltalite M7 and the generic small tip that came with the horn (70's painted Bundy).

I have Rico Royale 2 1/2 and VanDoren 3.
I tried the 3 first...airy, terrible...I thought I was going to have to ditch the mouthpiece.

I then tried the 2 1/2. Played GREAT. Drastic difference, couldn't have been better.
I Reed Geeked the back of the 3. It wasn't flat...it actually played better but still terrible.

I tried a different 3 just to see if it was a bum reed. Same result.
What kind of issues should I look for other than it just not being right for ME with that mouthpiece?

When dialing in reed strength, stick to one brand of reed. As you see in the chart below, "strength" is a relative value between cuts and brands.

http://reedstore.com/reed-strength-chart

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

AH...that is exactly how it feels.

 

[Dr G]

AH...that is exactly how it feels.

Good - now you can make informed decisions. Be also aware that these charts are not all exactly the same, consider them independent interpretations. Search on "reed strength charts baritone saxophone" to get a glimpse of a variety of charts. If you cannot find one chart that has the exact brands that you want to compare, use a couple charts to make inferences and extrapolations.

Use the power for good!

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

Reed Geek and soaking it in water makes the Van Doreen 3 playable.
Still ordering more Royal 2 1/2 but I’ll keep investigating

 

[raindog]

Reeds make a huge difference, and although expensive, much less so than mouthpieces. It's money well spent to have a reserve of various reeds in different strengths available - at least a step or two up and down in strength from your regular reed. For the price of a middle-top shelf mouthpiece you get pretty good set of different reeds, and in my opinion that collection is the more important asset to have when you eventually want to reconsider your setup.

Even when you're not switching mouthpieces, as your chops develop, you may suddenly find to have much better results in different strength, maybe even different brand (and the best direction is not always towards harder reed as some might think).

 

[JL]

I then tried the 2 1/2. Played GREAT.

....the 2 1/2 just works with no prep at all.

I don't see what the problem (or question) is.

 

[saxoclese]

I used to teach my students that getting a good mouthpiece reed combination is like a marriage. Sometimes a divorce is the best solution. For players whose fundamental tone production skills are still developing I recommend finding a Legere Signature synthetic in the strength that provides the correct amount of resistance. Cane reeds can be a challenging variable even for experienced players. Players with less experience often have a hard time knowing whether it is them or the reed. Having a reed that plays consistently removes that variable and clears the way for the player to focus on areas that need improvement.