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Discussion Starter #1
A few days ago I noticed my sax was being offered for sale on this site by someone other than myself. I'm a little ticked off for any number of reasons, obviously.

My concerns are:
1. I want to give the person doing this a brief window of time to be honest to everyone about it.
2. If anyone was close to purchasing the horn from this person, I'd hate to see you and me getting "played"
3. I don't want to breach any etiquette of this board. This is my first post on here. I'm a sax player too, but I didn't know about this board until I managed to find my sax for sale on here.

If anyone has any suggestions for dealing with this, please feel free to help out.
 

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do you mean that this person is using a picture of your saxophone without mentioning that the item on sale is not the actual saxophone on display?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
This person is trying to "flip" my horn.

I offered my horn for sale somewhere other than here. This person wanted to purchase it, but has yet to come through with anything concrete. I began to wonder what was up, so I searched around a bit and found my horn for sale here, complete with the photos I sent to this person.

I suppose there are worse things a person could do than trying to make a buck flipping a horn, but the lack of being up front about it kind of ticks me off.
 

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So Who Is Doing This!??! I have no tolerance for jerks who do this, especially here.

If you haven't been paid, then tell us about the horn and how much you are asking.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Carl, I don't want to out this person without giving them a bit of time to come clean with what they are doing. If this person doesn't do so within 24 hours or so, then I'll detail everything.

I will state that if you are contemplating purchasing a horn on here, it might be a good idea to peruse other sites where things are routinely offered for sale before making an offer.
 

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throwback said:
A few days ago I noticed my sax was being offered for sale on this site by someone other than myself. I'm a little ticked off for any number of reasons, obviously.

My concerns are:
1. I want to give the person doing this a brief window of time to be honest to everyone about it.
2. If anyone was close to purchasing the horn from this person, I'd hate to see you and me getting "played"
3. I don't want to breach any etiquette of this board. This is my first post on here. I'm a sax player too, but I didn't know about this board until I managed to find my sax for sale on here.

If anyone has any suggestions for dealing with this, please feel free to help out.

I would let this person sell your horn and then you refuse to sell it to him - that should stir up the bees nest.

(Hey Carl H. your avatars are getting werid - looks like someone I smoked some of those mexican cigarettes with. Is Willmar anywhere close to Lake Wobegon?)
 

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Forum Contributor 2015, SOTW Better late than neve
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This isn't Bill Gates selling a version of q-dos to IBM he doesn't yet own. It's a sax marketplace that when a seller offers something, ownership by that seller is implied (unless otherwise stated). That's more than just good etiquette. It's the right thing! So, please insist the seller remove the ad for all our sake.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I'm trying to take the high road here and balancing the notions found in http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=2901
"Fraud is someone trying to sell equipment he doesn't own."

and

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=53344

Either way, I suspect this person will not be selling anything within 24 hours, but hopefuly that will be enough time for this person to be honest enough to come forward and admit what's going on.

If I hear from a mod that I need to detail everything prior to that, then I'll scrap the 24 hour window of opportunity.
 

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throwback said:
I will state that if you are contemplating purchasing a horn on here, it might be a good idea to peruse other sites where things are routinely offered for sale before making an offer.
Throwback, there are a lot of very reliable sellers on this forum. The way you are handling this is unfair to them. Don't step on everyone else to protect someone who is not being up front in their offer.

And no, I don't have any saxes listed for sale, here or elsewhere.
 

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throwback said:
I will state that if you are contemplating purchasing a horn on here, it might be a good idea to peruse other sites where things are routinely offered for sale before making an offer.
This statement is uncalled for. You are insulting the whole SOTW membership.
 

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Beat me to it Retread.


spartacus said:
(Hey Carl H. your avatars are getting werid - looks like someone I smoked some of those mexican cigarettes with.
Were you the one there with Lydia?
spartacus said:
Is Willmar anywhere close to Lake Wobegon?)
Just upstream a bit.
 

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throwback said:
Carl, I don't want to out this person without giving them a bit of time to come clean with what they are doing. If this person doesn't do so within 24 hours or so, then I'll detail everything.

I will state that if you are contemplating purchasing a horn on here, it might be a good idea to peruse other sites where things are routinely offered for sale before making an offer.
I am fully against this remark as well. If the horn is infact yours, it is your duty as the RIGHTFUL owner to reveal who it is. As stated before that comment is out of line. You are way less likely to get scammed here than on ebay.

You also posted this thread, which means that you know who it is. And if he sells the horn before the name and the add can be removed you may very well become an accomplance.

You sound like a nice guy, but by not telling you are legally part of his illeagil actions. Since as stated before since he posted the ad he implied ownership of the item which as you have stated he lacks. Since he neither has the horn nor has he paid the owner for them.

Since the scam which it could be is up, it is time to fess up, or to pay the guy, and that line which I qouted being strictin from the record.

~Carbs:D :D
 

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I would say that the protocol if there is one here is to attempt to serve the greater good. That is (IMHO) done by revealing more info.
You may resolve this issue privately with this individual to your satisfaction but it won't ensure that he won't repeat this behavior with other horns.
I think selling something you don't own without the consent of the owner is shabby and sleazy behavior and would prefer to know who if any among us is conducting business this way.
This also does the service of not casting suspicions against all sellers in general which at the moment is what you are doing, probably quite unintentionally but still...
 

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I agree - more information is called for. As a side note, if you happen to be the person who is 'selling' the horn in question, I would think you could take this opportunity to explain what your side is. I dont think it is always inapropriate to sell something before you have it in hand, as long as you are up front about it. I don't begrudge someone benefiting from capitalism.
 

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However, where it differs from capitolism is that the person who is trying to sell the horn has from what I understand not even paid for it yet. IT IS STILL OWNED by throwback. He should explain himself (the seller) immeadiatly. If he does not make a good case, then I propose that the ad gets deleted and the seller gets a refieral. And under his name his crime for a certain amount of time.
That sounds harsh, but so is selling something that you haven't even payed for.
 

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Is there a way I can subscribe to this thread without posting to it? :D
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Retread, you are right . . I hadn't thought of the impact on other sellers on here. Carl, I apologize, and I certainly wasn't trying to insult anyone on here. I made the statement to peruse other sites simply because that would have ferreted out this particular seller - again, I missed the fact that the vast majority of sellers on here are legit and shouldn't be second guessed.

Ok . . . here's the facts. . . .

On March 30, 2007 I listed my Selmer Balanced Action Sax for sale on Craigslist. I was contacted by a few people about the sale. Among the emails I received was the following (with email and phone numbers blocked out)


Herschel McWilliams to sale-303028404
show details Apr 17

** CRAIGSLIST ADVISORY --- AVOID SCAMS BY DEALING LOCALLY
** Avoid: wiring money, cross-border deals, work-at-home
** Beware: cashier checks, money orders, escrow, shipping
** More Info: http://www.craigslist.org/about/scams.html



Hello.

I am Herschel McWilliams, from Kansas City.. I actually work in Independence.. I want your horn if it is still available.. PLEASE CALL ME!!! I am a young aspiring saxophonist that would love to own your beauty.

Please reply to me at [email protected] which is my e-mail address at work (Auto Dealership)

Thank you.

Herschel McWilliams
(913)XXX-XXXX


I replied to him a few weeks later, and we spoke over the phone several times. The latest exchange was about a week ago when he indicated that he would know by that afternoon whether or not he would "be able" to purchase the sax. I haven't heard from him since.

After doing some searching around, I found the following . . . http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=58910

The photos of the sax on his thread are photos I took of my horn on March 21. I'll even attach a photo of the bed the first photo was taken on.

My sax is currently listed on Craigslist under the following http://kansascity.craigslist.org/msg/332313863.html

If anyone desires any further information, please do not hesitate to ask.

Again, I understand that on this forum there are generally legitimate dealers and those seeking to sell their horns. I apologize to anyone that I may have offended in trying to give Hersch17 an opportunity to come clean.

As an aside, the horn is still for sale. I have owned it since 1987. Rest assured, this horn has not been sitting around Hersch's house as a project.
 
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