[LatePlayer]

After 25 years I decided to take up sax having previously learned flute in High school. I didn't get to a very high standard during my teenage years, maybe Grade 3.
Anyway, I've been taking lessons for just short of a year now and I think I'm pleased with my progress, but that's the big question, how do you judge the progress you are making compared to the progress you could be making under a different teacher? I'm certainly a better sax player now than I ever was a flute player, and my inclination towards playing by ear is helped with my teachers emphasis (requested by me) towards basic jazz impro.
How do you determine the progress and structure of a lesson- in fact what should the average lesson look like?
I got home today, and although I thoroughly enjoyed the lesson I began to wonder how much focus is there from my teacher?
Your comments would be most appreciated (is this question in the right forum?)

 

[Dave Wright]

Hi and welcome.

, how do you judge the progress you are making compared to the progress you could be making under a different teacher? )

You can't possibly do that , its too hypothetical.

in fact what should the average lesson look like?

There's no average lesson.

I got home today, and I thoroughly enjoyed the lesson

Well then...? Sorry for the lack of input but whats the point of the thread?

Perhaps you could take a lesson with someone else ....?

 

[Pete Thomas]

I don't teach any more, but I used to structure each lesson round the needs of the particular student, so I would hate to have had one lesson analysed as an example of a "typical" or "average" lesson.

However, I would hope that the teacher is working on 3 core areas: tone, fingering technique and repertoire. If you are also learning impro then that would be another core area - ie some theory and useful patterns, licks and scales.

A good balance between all these things is essential, whether its over one lesson or several. (ie sometimes it might be necessary to focus one or more lessons on one core area that needs developing more than the others).

There are other areas as well as these main ones, depending on your needs - e.g. attitude, image, production.

 

[jbtsax]

A well designed private lesson in my opinion has a balance of the following:

-successfully passing off the previously assigned technical material
-introduction of the concepts and techniques of the new lesson from the method book
-continuing instruction on an assigned solo or melodic etude
-sight reading or reading duets with the teacher as time permits

A skilled teacher will address in every lesson the basics of musicianship that are found on most music festival adjudication forms:

Tone Quality
Intonation
Balance (if playing with an accompaniment)
Rhythm
Precision
Technic
Style
Phrasing
Articulation
Musical Expression
Stage presence (includes posture, proper holding position)

That's a tall order, but a great teacher will instinctively address each of these elements whenever a deficiency is heard (or seen) in the student's playing.

John

 

[LatePlayer]

jbt thanks for the constructive response- really helpful when you don't know how to critique lessons. It looks nothing like any lesson I've ever had. I don't think I've ever really had a 'previously assigned technical' piece set for me. its more a 'lets have a go at this one today'- as we work from Introducing the Saxophone by James Rae.
Pete thanks for the three key areas. I had the first comment today on fingering technique which was when I asked if I should use the side key for Bb in a particular piece we were trying. I do also appreciate that you can't judge on one lesson, it was just that todays lesson made me think about the past few months.
I'm probably playing for about 15 minutes of a 1hr lesson the rest is chat which I enjoy but isn't structured in the way that has been described.
When the only previous music lesson experience was from a bad tempered history teacher who doubled up at lunch time to teach flute, this input is much appreciated.
My concern now is how to break it to my tutor that I want a bit more guidance- or break it that I'm moving on.

 

[cleger]

My concern now is how to break it to my tutor that I want a bit more guidance- or break it that I'm moving on.

I wouldn't be too hasty. I personally wouldn't be able to tolerate a setup like jbt has posted. I assume that I am about your age and it sounds like I have similar goals to yours. My instructor is using a very loose approach where we get together and talk about different aspects of playing, now (~ 3yrs in) we mostly talk about specific issues relating to a given tune. I wouldn't want it any other way.

If you truly feel you are missing out on some things, I would suggest discussing this with your instructor. I am assuming that he/she is using a looser approach based on your age and the assumption that you aren't going to be dealing with any "festival adjudication" and that you will speak up if you feel like you want something different. By all means, be up front with your concerns but I wouldn't write him/her off just yet.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I'm probably playing for about 15 minutes of a 1hr lesson the rest is chat which I enjoy but isn't structured in the way that has been described.

Aha, funny you should say that because I was going to mention that it is possible for a lesson to be almost 100% talking, and I have given lessons in the past in which it was mostly chat (usually my first lesson with a student has been a lot of talking and not much playing), but for that to be the norm would be a very special case in which that is what the student specifically needed/wanted. I would say that is mostly what might happen on a quite advanced level.

In your case it sounds like you have a teacher with a quite informal approach, which is OK provided that is appropriate for the student - some students really thrive with a more relaxed and less preformatted and disciplined approach and I think this can be good provided it gets results. The sort of very disciplined structure as suggested by John above I believe can work well for some students but not others.

EDIT: I've just seen cleger's post and he makes some good points - you must feel comfortable with a discussion about the way the lessons are going, whether it would work to have a more formal approach and what the teacher's aims and strategy might be.

 

[RootyTootoot]

After 25 years I decided to take up sax having previously learned flute in High school. I didn't get to a very high standard during my teenage years, maybe Grade 3.
Anyway, I've been taking lessons for just short of a year now and I think I'm pleased with my progress, but that's the big question, how do you judge the progress you are making compared to the progress you could be making under a different teacher? I'm certainly a better sax player now than I ever was a flute player, and my inclination towards playing by ear is helped with my teachers emphasis (requested by me) towards basic jazz impro.
How do you determine the progress and structure of a lesson- in fact what should the average lesson look like?
I got home today, and although I thoroughly enjoyed the lesson I began to wonder how much focus is there from my teacher?
Your comments would be most appreciated (is this question in the right forum?)

Your questions are understandable but almost impossible to answer. You are in a better position to answer them than we are. If you know your playing is progressing then that is one measure. If you compare how quick you are to pick up skills generally with instruction or without in other areas of your life that is another measure. Another teacher might be better. They might be worse. The teacher/pupil relationship is to do with the interaction of the people involved in the process.

I agree with John and Pete, of course, that most good teachers will have considered specific areas of study that will provide structure to the learning experience. But it would be perfectly possible too for a teacher to address various tickbox areas and yet deliver a thoroughly bad lesson IMHO. The key issue is whether you are enjoying yourself and feel progress towards where you want to go with this.

EDIT: The best thing to do i forgot to mention! Discuss the issues you raised here with your teacher in person. That's the best thing for you to do. But don't raise the issue as one of "I think I know a better way" raise it as "I'd like to discuss my progress and where i'm going with my sax playing" or some such thing..

 

[Dave Wright]

You also say that you requested some 'playing by ear' which your teacher geared the lesson toward. You have to remember that teaching is a very individual thing and it may take a while for you both to get in a groove , for him to know your playing and you to feel comfortable and relaxed enough to get the most from the lesson.-

I always feel slightly protective with threads like this, sorry. Talk to him and move forward- you won't have to break anything to him , it's not like he's going to be devastated.

 

[LatePlayer]

Really helpful feedback- thanks all. Dave I teach stuff other than music and REALLY understand your sense of protection, no worries. Criticism of my teacher couldn't be further from my mind.

I suppose what was on my mind was the old story of the boy who played for hours in the foot bath because he didn't know what a swimming pool was. Is there something I'm missing in lessons that really should be there.

I feel very relaxed now to chat it through and positively move on. Pete, thanks for the input on chatting in lessons- again it was a case of felt okay with it, but was it the right thing. It also struck me yesterday that when we introduced a new piece from the study book, that it was not much point practising it there and then- other than a few run throughs. its taken me an hour this morning to begin to get hold of it- a waste of lesson in my view if I'd spent time then doing what I did this morning. This feedback has opened my eyes to the fact that I've probably got a very good teacher!

I probably need to chat about spending a bit more time on the pieces I have learned and getting feedback.

I feel very relaxed to just move forward now with my current teacher- thanks guys

 

[Keith Ridenhour]

I tape all the lessons my students do here at the house and they (and the parents) can gauge progress easily. The most important aspect of all this is what do you want?? I always teach basics of playing in my lessons but if the guy needs to prepare for an audition of written music the slant of the lessons are different than if he want to play along with a Pirates of the Carrabean CD by ear. Also, you may or may not know what progress is? I try to model good time, intonation, phrasing, lines because my students literally don't know what those aspects are or sound like. K

 

[Tim Price]

How good do YOU want to get ???

THE TEACHER ACTS AS A GUIDE,,,

Looking and trying to take the student on the best educational journey they can.

Speaking for myself, I Introduce students to the theme of of subject matter related to ... WHERE THEY ARE AT AS STUDENTS OF THIS BEAUTIFUL ART FORM AND SAXOPHONE HERITAGE.

I collaborate with the student to celebrate diversity and explore their own views and thoughts, dreams and vision.
I have them research different artists that represent our saxophone culture in their works.I always have students follow-up with their ideas and playing. This keeps it interesting for me too. Students then appreciate the educational convenience of educational freedom as they learn what is needed.

Then also I insist that I turn the "but I did it in the practice room" syndrome to a rality that helps them in real life in bandstands, clubs and concerts. I have loads of adult students performing worldwide in clubs and big bands as well as pros. CALL IT FUN, yes There's always topics such as... warm-ups (breathing, tone, artic, vibrato, technique, counting)- sightreading preparation- etude preparation- scales, patterns-duets/trios, tuning-quartets- solo preparation/perfection- practice techniques- reeds- altissimo-double tongue, circular breathe, slap- improvise, changes- transcribe, tunes- track sightreading, scales/practice techniques - transposing-organizing performance etc etc...

HARD WORK=RESULTS.

There are a few ideas. HTH.

Check this out it might be a good thing to study; ; ;
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Price/SaxophoneNecessities.html

 

[Keith Ridenhour]

Nice stuff. Tim Great ideas on whats needed to perform at a decent level. K

 

[cleger]

Nice stuff. Tim Great ideas on whats needed to perform at a decent level. K

Yup, scares the crap outta me every time I look at it.

I have to remind myself that he is saying that you need these things in order to be a "pro" player or get into a top music school. Neither of these things are in my future and I am making some headway on some of those areas, but others are a distant dream .

 

[claxton]

You're only playing for 15 minutews out of the hour? Get a new teacher.
You have a performer masquerading as a teacher, or at best a crappy teacher. I lucked out and have teacher who has me playing about 24 to 27minutes of my 30 minutes session. I arrive 30 minutes early and warm up (back ina crappy room with matted shag carpet and spent tubas and baritones) to be ready. I also practice my butt off all week to get what he has assigned me to get done, done. My teacher spent 20+ years in the Army band, plays gigs every weekend. He doesn't sugar coat feedback on stuff;e.g. if I have forsaken long tones to try to get the fingering down on some new pieces he jumps my stuff when I start quivering or play out of tune.

He plays with me, but rarely for me. And there is no chit- chat, juast a few laughs, even though he is a hell of a good guy. We are there to get me to be a better sax player. I'm 48 and don't have time to screw around.

 

[Bernards20040]

You're only playing for 15 minutews out of the hour? Get a new teacher.
You have a performer masquerading as a teacher, or at best a crappy teacher. I lucked out and have teacher who has me playing about 24 to 27minutes of my 30 minutes session. I arrive 30 minutes early and warm up (back ina crappy room with matted shag carpet and spent tubas and baritones) to be ready. I also practice my butt off all week to get what he has assigned me to get done, done. My teacher spent 20+ years in the Army band, plays gigs every weekend. He doesn't sugar coat feedback on stuff;e.g. if I have forsaken long tones to try to get the fingering down on some new pieces he jumps my stuff when I start quivering or play out of tune.

He plays with me, but rarely for me. And there is no chit- chat, juast a few laughs, even though he is a hell of a good guy. We are there to get me to be a better sax player. I'm 48 and don't have time to screw around.

I thought we had the same teacher for a minute:shock:
Then I Noticed you where in Kentucky, I guess you don't travel to Australia for lessons then

 

[Pete Thomas]

You're only playing for 15 minutews out of the hour? Get a new teacher.
You have a performer masquerading as a teacher, or at best a crappy teacher. I lucked out and have teacher who has me playing about 24 to 27minutes of my 30 minutes session.

I think it's slightly unfair to assume that is a bad teacher purely based on the amount of playing a student does in the lesson.

A lesson which is 90% playing would very often not leave enough time for discussion. I have taken part in peer review assessments of many lessons at university level, and I think the best teachers would be discussing relevant aspects of performance or playing examples for anything up to 90% (more in some cases) of the lessons. Oral feedback is incredibly important, ear traing, listening are all incredibly important parts of a lesson.

I don't think you can criticise a teacher purely based on the amount of playing a student does in a lesson, you would need to actually be present at that lesson or witness the results at the end of a sustained programme to know whether or not that is a good teacher.

 

[RootyTootoot]

You're only playing for 15 minutews out of the hour? Get a new teacher.
You have a performer masquerading as a teacher, or at best a crappy teacher.

Actually I would have said rather the opposite, if anything!! A "performer masquerading as a teacher" is much more likely to be comfortable with listening to you play a series of pieces, commenting briefly on your playing and demonstrating pieces and exercises, in my opinion. So in that case there might be very little chat or explanation. For an interesting insight into the procedures of what most would regard as one of the "great teachers" you may find it interesting to check out the Joe Allard website:

http://www.joeallard.org/

 

[DDDDD]

I have had a variety of teachers for different instruments over the years. The best one is a brass teacher for trombone which I am having lessons on at the moment. We meet on average once a month, which suits us both. It gives me time to practice in between real life. I have an hour lesson and it normally evolves from whatever I do wrong in the first piece I play to him, or I tell him what has been going well or not well since we last met. (Generally music is chosen by opening a book [I have lots with short tunes of a similar standard and different styles] at random and saying 'play that'). Sometimes there will be a plan to tackle a particular thing in the next lesson. He teaches by describing a technique/method etc, then I try it, we discuss it, he might demonstrate it and by then I've normally got enough of a handle to go and practice it at home. My goal is to be a good amateur (far to late for anything else at this stage in life) and as I double on loads of other instruments I have a reasonable music grounding. This type of evolving lesson suits the way I learn. I have a very short attention span. The thought of working through a method book makes me very depressed. I am sure Mr Teacher Sir has an overall game plan. We seem to be covering most things as we go along: tone production, tuning, articulation of various types, dynamics.

Find a teacher who suits the way you learn and the goals you have. For adults who are working or have other commitments, I would expect that a lesson every week might be a nice escape from real life, but probably isn't that valuable as you can't get in a vast amount of practice in between. If you decide that is what you want there is nothing wrong with that, but there is not point kidding yourself about it. If you can't read music already then perhaps more lessons are needed initially. But for most adults I would expect that every couple of weeks is enough, as you are able to take in enough instruction in that lesson to give you plenty to work on. Adults tend to be fussier than children and work towards perfection rather than 'good enough'. They have more of an idea of how it 'should' sound - and probably less patience with themselves when it doesn't sound like that at all. But it takes a certain type of teacher to teach an adult well, just like some teachers are far better for children and some are terrible with them. But many teachers can't do lessons every few weeks as they have slots to fill and they need the regular booking. My teacher and I get together when neither of us is performing and I am not working elsewhere.

If you are not happy then change teacher. But you need to decide what it is that you want from lessons. Otherwise no teacher can satisfy you. If you are enjoying lessons then there is probably little reason to change.
Out of interest, have you joined any music groups? There must be loads of jazz groups around. I find this is a great social affair, improves your playing no end, and also helps you work out where your playing really needs work.

 

[bari_sax_diva]

But you need to decide what it is that you want from lessons. Otherwise no teacher can satisfy you. If you are enjoying lessons then there is probably little reason to change.
Out of interest, have you joined any music groups? There must be loads of jazz groups around. I find this is a great social affair, improves your playing no end, and also helps you work out where your playing really needs work.

+1

I think that--especially as an adult--the student has a responsibility to know their own objectives and communicate those to their teacher. Otherwise, how could you possibly know whether you're getting what you need to out of your lessons?