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Discussion Starter #1
I've begin to look into the possiblity of buying a new horn, but it almost seems
that there is some kind of monopolistic "price-fixing" going on. It's very difficult
to determine a fair price for a new horn.

As a musician, I have my own overhead to worry about, so I'm not in the business of worrying about a dealers' overhead. Especially since most dealers don't even stock the horns or have any way of providing "added value" to the sale. If I need a repair done, I pay for it anyhow.

Seems that all I'm looking to do is place an order on line or over the phone. So with all those sax players out there, could someone enlighten us as to what the current wholesale prices might be for a Yanagisawa S901, Yamaha YSS-875EX, or Yamaha Custom Z?

Thanks!
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2009
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With a huge inventory of used equipment on the market, a screwed up economy, and millions of people living on hard times, why would you even consider buying new?
 

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The cheapest yanagisawa S-901 is from Kesslermusic.com at $2729.00 and the Yamaha 875ex is $3665.00 at wwbw.com Your best bet for not taking the hit for a new horn is to look for used ones in the for sale area of the forum. I have a YSS-875ex for sale right now.
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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could someone enlighten us as to what the current wholesale prices might be for a Yanagisawa S901, Yamaha YSS-875EX, or Yamaha Custom Z?
How many do you intend to buy?
 

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I've seen price lists, and there is a huge markup on instruments. Generally, the dealer cost (which isn't directly through say Yamaha, but a third party) is well less than half the retail price. So, for a $1999 MSRP sax, it's cost is around $800 or so. $849. Depends if you buy one or more than one. The more you buy, the more you save. I think they usually top out at 10+ and you can save something like another $100 per horn.
 

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With a huge inventory of used equipment on the market, a screwed up economy, and millions of people living on hard times, why would you even consider buying new?
Totally agree. There really is no point in getting anything new. I think the only "new" instruments I own are a Yani curved soprano and a Zentner piccolo. Basically, because there were no used ones out there (1995ish.....good economy) and I had the money. Everything else I own and play are used (Loree oboe, Mark VI alto and tenor, 2 flutes, 1 alto flute).
 

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Forum Contributor 2012, SOTW Saxophone Whisperer,
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Working for a store selling new instruments - I think your idea is not accurate. Now, I am willing to admit I am not paying the bills so I don't see how much we actually are paying, but I do get to see the books and see the discounted deal prices now and again.

While $1999 is the MSRP - NOBODY ends up selling them at that price. If dealer cost is $800 - you usually see most places selling it for $1100.

This "huge mark up" you talk about is only in the MSRP. I know Yamaha only allows you to advertise MSRP - actual cost may be something different.

Be careful judging how much profit you think a company should make on a horn. Your salary may not depend on it - but mine sometimes does (in an indirect way - says the repairman for a store where I blow down and set up every new horn that ships out of the store)

I agree with everybody else - if price is a concern - look at used ones - there are some pretty good bargains to be had there.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
It tend to agree. A good used horn could be a good way to go. Curiously, I'm not finding a lot of the "type" of horn I'm looking for at the moment, and with e-bay, so many people seem to be trying to get top dollar for their horns with high reserves and "buy it now" prices. Not to mention that many horns on e-bay are from dealers.

E-bay is a curious pheneomena, it means that a good used horn (or one that appears to be good) can be presented to sale to the whole world at once, keeping the cost high as only a few buyers seeking a particular horn are willing to pay a bit more to get it.

It means individuals owners can now ask dealer-type prices. So I'm not finding many respectable bargains for good condition Yanagisawas and Yamahas. This is what lead me to consider a new horn. You would think in a bad ecomony that I one could buy a new one too at just slightly over dealer cost.

Maybe with the used horn, patience is the most valuable currency.
 

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There is the 'dealer cost' that they will quote you, and then there's the REAL dealer cost.
Either way no one is going to sell you a horn for close to either one of those prices.
You would be farther ahead to purchase a used/previously loved horn in GPC than to try to fnd the 'cheapest' new version.
Think of it as helping out a fellow horn player. He gets a little extra cash to cover living expenses, and you get a great playing horn for less than the cost of it's new counterpart.
While you're at it, adopt a shelter pet. They need good homes too...
 

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Discussion Starter #10
What is GPC? Good playable condition? I do agree...but I do seem to be opening a huge new can-o-worms trying to
value the "used" horn marketplace. In the meantime, maybe some kind soul will post real dealer cost so
we can use that as a benchmark. Truth is, many people likely overpaid for their horns to begin with
and are trying to recoup that value now with inflated secondary market prices.
 

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I've seen price lists, and there is a huge markup on instruments. Generally, the dealer cost (which isn't directly through say Yamaha, but a third party) is well less than half the retail price. So, for a $1999 MSRP sax, it's cost is around $800 or so. $849. Depends if you buy one or more than one. The more you buy, the more you save. I think they usually top out at 10+ and you can save something like another $100 per horn.
Graysax is right, you rarely see anyone mark new instruments at list prices. Most often, the discounts are steep.

WestSide; said:
I've begin to look into the possiblity of buying a new horn, but it almost seems
that there is some kind of monopolistic "price-fixing" going on. It's very difficult
to determine a fair price for a new horn.
It's quite easy, actually. Just look at the various internet outlets. There's no reason to believe that prices aren't competitive, and if they seem to be mostly the same, that's because information is so free on the internet that they adjust themselves quickly.

Problem is that new instruments, particularily ones manufactured in first world countries like the US, France, and Japan, is that they're quite expensive to make, especially given the number of man hours that must be put into each one.


As a musician, I have my own overhead to worry about, so I'm not in the business of worrying about a dealers' overhead. Especially since most dealers don't even stock the horns or have any way of providing "added value" to the sale. If I need a repair done, I pay for it anyhow.
I take it that the Manufacturer places a lot of value on these high-overhead outlets. Afterall, how else is there going to be a storefront where customers can see and handle their goods? It's likely the OEMs' best interests that they exist.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
JFW: I do understand why a manufacturer would want to support a dealer network that regularly sold their horns. Problem with Yanagisawa, however, is that it sold through Conn-Selmer. So even if a dealer move a fair amount of Selmers and other lines, they may not sell hardly any Yanagisawas, yet they are still considered Yanagisawa dealers. Sure, if they have them in their shop and sell their customers on them, then when not make a profit?

But in actuality there are almost no dealers that stock Yanagisawas. Let alone the whole range of Yanagisawas and Yamahas (and even Selmers) to really feel like the dealer has made an investment in promoting and selling the horn. Lots of dealers will "order one" for you. But that holds little value for me as a consumer. I don't want to feel obligated for them to order one in. And really, to choose a pro horn, you probably want to try a few. So with no real "selling" expense for these horns, and professionals doing the research and finding out for themselves or from other professionals, the whole concept of a dealer network and markup is really an outdated model. With the internet leveling the playing field for promotion, information and ease of sale, I would hope the model for distribution would start to shift to allow crafstmen and customers to communicate more directly.

In the meantime, I still have my Antiqua soprano until the right horn comes along!
 

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No everyone.

This is a great question. If you want anything that is indeed new, it helps to know the jobber or dealer price. This lets you know where the negotiating range is. Otherwise you are operating in the dark

There's nothing wrong with wanting something new and there is nothing wrong for wanting it at the best price possible. :bluewink:
 

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When you go to the grocery store or Walmart do you know what the retailer paid for your ham, big screen television, or toothpaste? Do you negotiate all the prices with the cashier:evil:? To me the important thing is what is one retailer charging vs. other retailers. I don't know what the retailer paid, and frankly I don't care. I have been told by a couple of folks that have worked in the business that retailers usually make a few hundred dollars on a typical saxophone sale. So when you make a silly low ball offer on ebay they ask you to go back to hunting garage sales:tsk:!
 

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When I worked for the companies in Elkhart, the general rule was:
Student horns = 50% of list price, 45+% for large dealers
Pro horns = 60% of list price
Today it is anyone's guess. Mfgs sell for less for cash from a dealer, large quantities, etc.
Sometimes a dealer will get a good deal on pro horns if he takes 100-500 student horns.
Shop around and consider a used horn. Times are rough.
 

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Grafton alto | Martin Comm III tenor
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ow the jobber or dealer price. This lets you know where the negotiating range is. Otherwise you are operating in the dark
The problem with that is very few customers are aware of a dealer's overheads. If they assume the markup is 100% profit and use that for negotiation they are not getting an accurate picture.

I don't think so. Why would any dealer divulge this info on a public forum?
See above. So many customers would jump to the wrong conclusion and thing they are being ripped off.
 

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yes, this is commonplace, endcustomers hardly ever realise what's involved in in getting to the endprice and think that someone is making big profits while most of it goes into paying all sorts of things ..........overhead yes, but how about taxes?
In Holland , for example, you would pay a Minimum of 30% on any earnings that you make let alone all the general and very high expenses.
I have direct information that the figures that Bruce has quoted are more or less applicable to modern music trade too.
 

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by the way, why is this in the horns wanted section?
 
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