[twsax]

Hi,

Can someone please tell me what the exact definition of "overhaul" is when applied to fixing saxophones?

I've heard a lot of different stuff from different people and sources over the years about the causes and effects of an overhaul.

Can someone please explain this?

Thanks.

 

[Dog Pants]

Hmmmm.....let's see.

An overhaul, is the same as a check up, is the same as an adjustment, is the same as a re-pad, is the same as a full restoration.

I'm pretty annoyed at the moment because my main Alto went in for a leak check. My tech strips the whole thing down, tells me it's the best "Crat" alto he's seen as far as all the mechanichals etc, but that it needs a full repad. Then you get a "vaguely, possibly, maybe, depends upon," quote. A week later,a call on the phone tells you that your horn is ready and the bill comes to AUD$ 1000 +.

My tech is perhaps the best in the business, but the prices have gone steadily skyward. I always budget $400 at least above his first quote.

To answer your question, from a players point of view, an overhaul means a full restoration on the mechanical side of things at least. You might tell your tech not to worry about cosmetic stuff, but all pads, tone holes, springs, rods, posts and pivots etc, should be made true.

It's gonna be damned expensive and is really only worth the cost if you're a serious player. As much as I whinge about the cost of a good tech, it's impossible to guess a quote until they've stripped the horn down I suppose. I'll feel better when I get the horn back and play it.

 

[sycc]

Overhaul is new pads,cork,and felts. I nstrument is disassembled,cleaned and reassembled w/ the aforementioned parts.

 

[saxmanglen]

It can mean different things depending on the tech doing the work. I like how Tim @ Sax Alley lists his services. You can see an example here:

http://www.saxalley.com/repair.html

 

[Razzy]

Overhaul is new pads,cork,and felts. I nstrument is disassembled,cleaned and reassembled w/ the aforementioned parts.

Don't forget the mechanical truing up of every single part of the saxophone. If this is not done, if anything is left up for debate, it's not really an overhaul. It's a "sorta". An overhaul should only really have to be done to an instrument once, with subsequent checkups and replacing of a pad here and there, oiling, etc.

 

[abadcliche]

This is an issue that bothers me as well. The following text in quotes is pasted from my website:

"In parts of the repair world today, the terms "repad" and "overhaul" are found to be used almost interchangeably, when they are fundamentally different things.

When I repair your instrument:

-A full repad is replacing every single pad and cork, along with a cleaning of the keys and body and minor dent removal. Toneholes are checked and perfected. On saxophones and flutes, the neck tenon body seal is checked and adjusted for a perfect fit. On clarinets, all tenon corks are replaced. Major bodywork/soldering is extra.

-An overhaul is all of the repad, plus a restoration of the keywork to better-than-new mechanical condition. ALL play is removed from the hinge tubes and pivot rods. Hinge tubes are gently swedged tight using collets, with regard to the integrity of the finish, and then made square and true with hinge tube facers so that the bearing surfaces of the ends of the hinge tubes are perfectly flat, thus ensuring a long-lasting and smooth fit. The pivot screw bearing surfaces are checked and if the screw is uneven, it is replaced with an original replacement part. The pivot receivers on the pivot rods are thoroughly cleaned out, checked, and perfected to match the pivot screw exactly. Then the pivot screw post is counterbored until the pivot screw and pivot rod fit perfectly, being absolutely free with no play. Springs are assessed and replaced if needed. Minor dents are removed. Major bodywork/soldering is extra.
"


Some repair shops even go so far as to call a "repad" just replacing every pad, but leaving every cork and felt etc. possible, and no chem cleaning, and usually not even totally disassembly. To disassemble and replace the corks in addition to replacing the pads is an "overhaul". Argh!

In my opinion, if all the pads need replaced, the corks also need replaced, and it also needs cleaning. And also in my opinion, you cannot properly fix a horn that has more than a minimal amount of play in the keys without removing the play first. Doing less is not doing right by the instrument- or the customer.


Anyways, as you may be able to tell, this is one topic that I feel pretty strongly about

 

[Carl H.]

DP and ABAD nailed it. Much more involved than just replacing soft goods and oiling.

 

[Dave Wright]

Hmmmm.....let's see.

An overhaul, is the same as a check up, is the same as an adjustment, is the same as a re-pad, is the same as a full restoration.

I'm pretty annoyed at the moment because my main Alto went in for a leak check. My tech strips the whole thing down, tells me it's the best "Crat" alto he's seen as far as all the mechanichals etc, but that it needs a full repad. Then you get a "vaguely, possibly, maybe, depends upon," quote. A week later,a call on the phone tells you that your horn is ready and the bill comes to AUD$ 1000 +.

My tech is perhaps the best in the business, but the prices have gone steadily skyward. I always budget $400 at least above his first quote.

To answer your question, from a players point of view, an overhaul means a full restoration on the mechanical side of things at least. You might tell your tech not to worry about cosmetic stuff, but all pads, tone holes, springs, rods, posts and pivots etc, should be made true.

It's gonna be damned expensive and is really only worth the cost if you're a serious player. As much as I whinge about the cost of a good tech, it's impossible to guess a quote until they've stripped the horn down I suppose. I'll feel better when I get the horn back and play it.

That sounds pricey dog, do you not get any kind of discount by recommending his work to your students? I ask my students to mention who sent them, there has to be some perks.

 

[saintsday]

Good thread. This is a gray area way too often.

If it isn't completely disassembled and made to play as well or better than new, with everything mentioned above, it isn't an overhaul.

DP- I don't care how good your tech may be, that treatment is totally whacko.

 

[Dog Pants]

It is pricey. He's as good a tech as there is and you pay for it. I don't recommend him to anyone unless they are a serious player looking for a complete restoration done properly. He's just too expensive. I send my students to a good tech who charges 1/2 what he does.
I go to him with the Buescher because it's my main horn AUD$ 60.

I would have done it for free. I'm not saying the tech should've done it for free, but it's not a $60 job in my book.

If anyone would like to PM me with recommendations of which jobs I could safely attemps and which tools I'll need, please do so. I have many kids (sax clari and flute) playing on undermaintained school instruments. I'm reasonably capable with hand tools and fine working. I don't want to take work away from techs, these kids won't see a tech because neither their parents nor the school budget can afford to do so. Anything I can do to help fix or maintain the instruments would be helpful.

 

[Lefty]

When I started in 1974 as a woodwind apprentice, overhaul was doing absolutely everything, including the finish. Anything less was a major or minor repad, major being what Abadcliche refers to as an overhaul. The name given to the job is less important than making sure you and the repairman know exactly what is expected and what is possible.

Lefty

 

[Carl H.]

That sounds pricey dog, do you not get any kind of discount by recommending his work to your students? I ask my students to mention who sent them, there has to be some perks.

My tech is worth whatever she asks.

I'm all for giving students a break, but I won't patronize a tech or shop that gives kickbacks to teachers. Totally unethical in my book.

 

[Dave Wright]

Not to hijack the thread but I'm not sure whats unethical about it? It's called ' trade price ' It's how business works isn't it?
I've always been offered , not demanded , discount from the local music shop for reeds,books etc for indirectly improving their trade, whether i'm aware of it or not. I'll take it every time.

 

[Carl H.]

Not to hijack the thread but I'm not sure whats unethical about it? It's called ' trade price ' It's how business works isn't it?
I've always been offered , not demanded , discount from the local music shop for reeds,books etc for indirectly improving their trade, whether i'm aware of it or not. I'll take it every time.

Some will direct students to the place they get kickbacks from as opposed to where the students get the best deal. I have no opposition to teacher discounts, but kickbacks are TOTALLY unethical. If you can't see that then I am sorry for you.

The students interest comes first.

 

[clarnibass]

IMO an overhaul is a term invented by techs to somehow sound more sophisticated (i.e. vague) and charge more. Overhaul doesn't have any meaning. Of course not all techs are like this, some say just overhaul because they are used to it.

If your tech suggests an overhaul, it would be better to ask what exactly that includes. You don't want your instrument cleaned? Don't want it polished? That might be a part of the overhaul, included in the quote, but without specifying. Ask why he thinks something is necessary, then decide if you want it or not, epseically if it is cosmetic. If a customer is interested I explain to them exactly why I think something should be done or not, why one option is better than another, etc.

Can someone please explain what "kickbacks" mean? Thanks.

Edit: after reading Gordon's post I now see I meant an estimate and not quote (language differences). We either have a specific price or an estimate, so I thought quote meant estimate.

 

[Carl H.]

Can someone please explain what "kickbacks" mean? Thanks.

Paying somebody for sending business their way.

Sorry to have derailed this thread with this business.

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

Some will direct students to the place they get kickbacks from as opposed to where the students get the best deal. I have no opposition to teacher discounts, but kickbacks are TOTALLY unethical. If you can't see that then I am sorry for you.

The students interest comes first.

I totally agree! Totally unethical. If the teacher were not getting the kickbacks, then the price could be reduced for the financially struggling buyer. Indirectly a kickback steals from the buyer, to give to the teacher, all done with a smile. As a teacher I could never do that to my students.

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

.... My tech is perhaps the best in the business, but the prices have gone steadily skyward. I always budget $400 at least above his first quote....

Over the ditch, at least, a "Quote" is legally binding. As opposed to an "estimate".

No, it doesn't pay to be an optimistic tech, being optimistic on behalf of the customer. I've been guilty of it myself.

Even an "estimate" for a big job is little more than a guess at what time (hence money) is involved. The unforeseen is often a major part of woodwind work.

In large civil works projects, an expensive exercise is carried out to prepare a quote for clearly specified, known operations. Anything that turns up unexpectedly is likely to become a cost overrun in order to complete the project.

Doing the same exercise for a woodwind would also be expensive in time, and the very doing of it is likely to render the instrument less playable, or even unplayable. Simple example - Try prying off linkage corks to see if the glue is holding. And then there is still the unexpected - the cost overruns.

So what is a conscientious technician to do? Quote really high to allow for the unexpected? Some do. This usually means that the guy who has a well made instrument, well looked after, and hence simpler to work on, finishes up subsidising the guy who buys crap and abuses it. It also means that the customer may well go to the opposition who is NOT conscientious, and does a very superficial job, that is actually very poor value for money.

 

[clarnibass]

Paying somebody for sending business their way.

In that case, yes I agree with you and Gordon. It could cause higher prices like Gordon said, but what when each brand is sold by only one store, creating a monopoly and higher prices anyway (like in... hmm.. "some places")? In a way, that makes kickbacks harder, because if someone wants a Selyamagiwerth saxophone they are going to have to come to the only store that sell them, and there is no better deal to find, but then the kickbacks are for specific brands...

 

[Gordon (NZ)]

Overhaul and repad?

An overhaul: Doing all that is needed (as well as dent removal) to put an instrument into a state that it is playing really well and has excellent reliability well into the future. To the technician it includes repadding, but the term is used loosely by customers, for a lot less work.

On many instruments it is a LOT of work On others (e.g with badly rusted pivots, pivot rods a sloppy fit in posts, and badly non-level tone holes) it is three times that much work! (So what's with standard prices that some technicians have?). Cosmetics other than thorough clean are extra, by negotiation with customer.

A repad: A relatively small part of an overhaul. A subset, i.e putting new pads in and carrying out related adjustments. What is the use of a repad if it is unreliable because the other stuff was not done? So the terms are defined for each customer depending on the state of their instrument.

Perhaps my perspective is flavoured by the fact that here, people tend to keep their pads going until the instrument needs an overhaul. They do not change pads again on a whim a few months after an overhaul.

Brief answer: Whatever the particular tech defines them as, in the presence of the customer. There will never be consensus of meaning, because all over the place, SOME technicians - perhaps quite a few - are doing a lot less, calling it a lot more, and providing poor value for money.