[ErikJon]

Dear friends,

According to Aebersold, the formula for Em7b5 contains exactly the same notes as the F major scale, meaning that the 9th note would be F, the same as the 2nd, right? Otherwise, he says that if you raise the 2nd note you get what is called "Em7b5(#2)."

However, according to what I am seeing in Vol.2 of the Joseph Viola series, the 9th degree is always raised a half step to F#, and yet it is still called only "Em7b5," and all of his exercises in 12 keys seem to demonstrate that opinion.

1. Which is correct, and why is there any controversy?

2. Which of the two formulae is identical to EØ (half diminished)?

Up until now I thought that the Aebersold position was that Em7b5 was identical to EØ (E half diminished), but now I am having my doubts.

 

[Aquarian]

I'm gonna put on my functional analysis hat and say that the most common context for a half-diminished chord in jazz is as part of a minor key ii-V7 sequence. The "safe" scale that can be applied in this context is a harmonic minor of the i. For example, if you have Eø, A7(b9), D-7 you have a sequence of chords from the harmonic minor of D. The D-7 takes the natural minor but the ii-V (both chords) takes the harmonic.

From this pure functional analysis perspective I would say a #2 is a tension and not "native" or not the safest choice to sounding "in". It does seem like it would add a tension resolving chromatically to the 3 of the minor chord and thus may sound good as that note is the most important note if you resolve to the minor chord.

A minor7b5 chord has the same notes as a half diminished chord. For example, Eø and Eminorb5 are E G Bb D. Every other note is an extension or addition. Scales applied to the chord depend on function and personal preference, and some people separate them as two different chords depending on context (in one book I have the author says the chord should be referred to as half-diminished in the context of a minor ii-V which is iiø V7b9). Some people just prefer one term over the other.

Any notes beyond the four chord tones are additional. Chord scales are a sort of shortcut for turning harmony into melodic material. What actually sounds good depends on taste and the ability of the performer to "justify" the note. I will say what I always say, you can play any note on any chord. You don't even have to play the harmony. This is jazz. You can say there is a correct set of notes functionally but in a jazz context... Well, you are free. The best way to understand it is to experiment by using a tune and trying it out.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Dear friends,

According to Aebersold, the formula for Em7b5 contains exactly the same notes as the F major scale, meaning that the 9th note would be F, the same as the 2nd, right? Otherwise, he says that if you raise the 2nd note you get what is called "Em7b5(#2)."

However, according to what I am seeing in Vol.2 of the Joseph Viola series, the 9th degree is always raised a half step to F#, and yet it is still called only "Em7b5," and all of his exercises in 12 keys seem to demonstrate that opinion.

1. Which is correct, and why is there any controversy?

2. Which of the two formulae is identical to EØ (half diminished)?

Up until now I thought that the Aebersold position was that Em7b5 was identical to EØ (E half diminished), but now I am having my doubts.

I would be very wary of either approach, I do not think chord/scale "formulae" really work well in improvising.

I agree with Aqraian, usually EØ or Em7b5 would be a IIM7b5 in the key centre of Dm, and so my go to choice of notes to fit in with it would be derived from a D harmonic minor. An F# on it in this contexrt wpuld imply D major, and though it is viable, you'd need to be skilled to use it in a way that sounds good. just my opinion. It's not impossible but nothing I would advise a beginner.

 

[bakkiemetkoekie]

I do think in chord/scale relationships. Emin7b5 could be in the scale of: Fmajor. Fmin melodic. Gmin melodic. Dmin harm. D min natural. Dmaj harmonic.

So there are some possibilities to play between E, G, Bb and D which make the chord Eø7.
The important thing is to see/hear the relation with the key you are in or the key where you are going to.
Sometimes you have more possibilities.

Eø as a II in Dminor I see as if you are in the scale of Dmin natural(same as Fmaj) so no C# like in other post. The C# is nicer in A7 the chord that comes after Eø.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Eø as a II in Dminor I see as if you are in the scale of Dmin natural(same as Fmaj) so no C# like in other post. The C# is nicer in A7 the chord that comes after Eø.

It can be just as nice in Eø especially when it's a cadence via the A7 to a D minor.

If you are going to think of scales (whether you actually play a scale passage or use it as the "pool" of notes to construct tasty melodies, it's more creative (for me) to have just one scale as aopposed to trying to think of a separate scale for each chord change. I like simple, it allows me to be more creative melodically.

 

[whaler]

This is the main reason to listen and transcribe. You can hear and see how a chord is approached by different players.

 

[turf3]

The halfdiminished chord is one of those where there is more than one note set that works over it, depending on context.
Chord tones: E G Bb D

One note set I use is derived from F major: E F G A Bb C D E
Another is derived from D harmonic minor (see above discussions of minor 2-5-1): E F G A Bb Db D E (I'm not sure whether that ought to be a Db or a C#).

The first set of notes is less tension than the second one due to that minor third of Bb-Db in the second set.

I think I've experimented with F#s in this chord and decided against them but I don't have a horn or piano ready to hand to listen.

For the improvisor I'd recommend having both note sets under one's fingers for the chord and then applying as your ear tells you.

 

[Mike T]

I would be very wary of either approach, I do not theink chord/scale "formulae" really work well in improvising.

I agree with Aqraian, usually EØ or Ebm7b5 would be a IIM7b5 in the key centrre of Dm, and so my go to choice of notes to fit in with it would be derived from a D harmonic minor. An F# on it in this contexrt wpuld imply D major, and though it is viable, you'd need to be skilled to use it in a way that sounds good. just my opoinion. It's not impossible but nothing I would advise a beginner.

The bit I've bolded is a typo, isn't it, for Em7b5 ?

I've always looked at Em7b5 and EØ as two names for the same chord.

Can Gm6 be considered here ?

 

[Pete Thomas]

The bit I've bolded is a typo, isn't it, for Em7b5 ?

I've always looked at Em7b5 and EØ as two names for the same chord.

Yes typo, I will edit.

Em7b5 and EØ are the same in my book. the Ø symbol means half diminished, if you take away the 7 (Db) all is left is E G Bb and there is no difference between that and a diminished triad.

I'm sure someone could argue there is a context for a half dimished that is a triad, but life is too short.

Can Gm6 be considered here ?

It is often used as a sort of substitute, I believe it is sometimes in old sheet music because the m7b5 scared the ukelele players. But we all know that generally root movement up a fifth (as in the ubiquitous II V I) is stronger and often preferred these days. (And by these days I of course mean since circa 1932)

 

[lydian]

Dear friends,

According to Aebersold, the formula for Em7b5 contains exactly the same notes as the F major scale, meaning that the 9th note would be F, the same as the 2nd, right? Otherwise, he says that if you raise the 2nd note you get what is called "Em7b5(#2)."

However, according to what I am seeing in Vol.2 of the Joseph Viola series, the 9th degree is always raised a half step to F#, and yet it is still called only "Em7b5," and all of his exercises in 12 keys seem to demonstrate that opinion.

1. Which is correct, and why is there any controversy?

2. Which of the two formulae is identical to EØ (half diminished)?

Up until now I thought that the Aebersold position was that Em7b5 was identical to EØ (E half diminished), but now I am having my doubts.

I'm with Viola on this one. Yes, the Locrian mode says F natural. But it sounds like crap. Locrian sharp 2 is more correct. I would never play F natural when playing the chord progression on piano. The F# is the way to go. It has great chromatic voice leading on a minor ii-V-I as well. In terms of just playing scales, either note would be ok in passing.

Whenever theory is ambiguous or doesn't make sense, rely on your ears. If it sounds good, it is good.

 

[ErikJon]

Well, as usual, I got more than I had bargained for, from a very kind group of people. A very jam-packed explanation, no less.

I appreciate all the background information that I had failed to take into consideration.

So, essentially what you all are saying is that the context may call for the one version or the other.

But, technially speaking--for whatever it's worth--regarding the definition, itself, (or "correct formula" for that symbol), I gather from your explanations, that the bottom line is that there is no universal concensus regarding whether the correct definition includes the #2 (b3) or not, but depends on the player, the song, and the context. If I understand it that way, it makes more sense.

I guess a good analogy is regarding how people define "Scandanavia"; some people include Finland in the definition, while others do not; some include Iceland and Finland, while others do not.

I will consider this question "answered," unless anyone feels that I have drawn wrong conclusions.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[paulwl]

I would hope the correct formula was to take the minor triad, add a dominant 7th, then lower the 5th by a half step. If not, I've been doing it wrong all these years.

 

[ErikJon]

Ha ha. You may even have to go back and apologize to your audiences, for playing it the wrong way.

 

[skeller047]

The correct “formula” for a m7b5 chord is to take a minor 7th chord and flat the 5th.

This chord, also known as a half-diminished chord, arise naturally in diatonic harmony as the 7th chord built on the 7th degree of the major scale, or the 2nd degree of the natural minor scale (also of the harmonic minor scale).

As to what scale to play over this chord, it depends on the context. As a ii chord in a minor key, I would probably end up with the natural minor scale - but I might add a few chromatic passing tones here or there depending on where my melody was heading. In the context of a major key (like Bm7b5 in the key of C) I would probably treat it as if it were a V9 chord in the 1st inversion.

Frankly, I really dislike the idea of “what scale do I play over this chord?” I prefer to think of things like “what key am I in” and “where is this chord heading” and “where do the notes in this chord lead” .... and maybe “how can I work that cool new pentatonic pattern in here and have it sound good when I hit the I”.

Choosing a scale to play over a chord or even a group of chords seems pointless to me. Like “here, noodle on this scale on bars 5 and 6”.

Instead, I want to find notes that have meaning, or sound good, then intersperse with other notes that fit. In other words, I want to have a reason for playing a note or a run or a phrase, and “l played this note because it’s in the scale that fits this chord” just doesn’t cut it as a good reason. For me, anyway.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Morph1590]

I agree with Aqraian, usually EØ or Em7b5 would be a IIM7b5 in the key centre of Dm, and so my go to choice of notes to fit in with it would be derived from a D harmonic minor. An F# on it in this contexrt wpuld imply D major, and though it is viable, you'd need to be skilled to use it in a way that sounds good. just my opinion. It's not impossible but nothing I would advise a beginner.

& I agree with Pete, agreeing with Aqraian!

ErikJon - you're right, there is no "correct definition" for what constitutes the best note choices to use over an Em7b5 chord... after all music is an art not a science! But there are a number of choices which are widely used to "fill in the gaps" between the chord tones (E G Bb D). For example:

1. Locrian - Essentially F major starting on E (I like how this note choice "saves" the C# for the A7 chord)

2. D Harmonic Minor - Personally, I like this as a first approach. It sounds great and makes a lot of sense as we're resolving to D minor!

3. G Melodic Minor - Sometimes called Locrian natural 2. That's what Aebersold and Viola are reffering too. It's a great sound but I wouldn't necessarily consider it the first choice/level 1 for half diminished chords. The F# gives a bright sound (and somewhat implies D major) so requires a bit more care imo. As someone else mentioned it's like substituting for Em7b5 for a Gm6 or Gm^7. It does give great voice leading as the F# falls to the F natural (b13 on the A7), which can resolve down to the E (9th of the Dminor).

 

[beau barry]

I like to think of E -7 b 5 as G-6 with the 6th in the bass.

 

[ErikJon]

O.K. So it's not a question of the correct definition, but whatever definition agrees with the context.

I understand what you mean about implications and resolutions. I'm only sorry to say that I have not mastered that subject yet.

Thank you all for the nice explanation.

 

[Jazz House]

I'm with Viola on this one. Yes, the Locrian mode says F natural. But it sounds like crap. Locrian sharp 2 is more correct. I would never play F natural when playing the chord progression on piano. The F# is the way to go. It has great chromatic voice leading on a minor ii-V-I as well.

This is really important. The F natural over that E half-dim really doesn't sound good at all because it results in the dreaded flat-9 violation (i.e. the interval formed between the F natural and root note E). It's a bit like having a the tonic of a major chord as the melody and a maj7 chord in the harmony (another flat-9 violation between the melody and the top note of the chord). I guess you could use the F if you were really sneaky about it, but it might raise some eyebrows.

Anyway, the Locrian #2 is a much better choice because of the chromatic voice leading on a minor ii-V. An example (1 note per chord):

• Emin7b5 - F# (natural 9)
• A7alt - F natural (b13)
• Dm - E (natural 9)

The other thing is that when you use modes from the ascending melodic minor scale, there aren't any avoid tones. It's handy, really, and melodic minor modes are often nicer choices than their major scale counterparts (again - my opinion!).

Now, regarding chord-scales... These are great teaching tools and in theory (ha ha) do teach you the "right" notes to play on any given chord, but they aren't really all that useful unless you look at voice leading too. I would always go with the Locrian #2 because it gives me more options for voice leading. I also happen to think that an F# on an Em7b5 sounds pretty cool.

 

[Pete Thomas]

This is really important. The F natural over that E half-dim really doesn't sound good at all because it results in the dreaded flat-9 violation (i.e. the interval formed between the F natural and root note E). It's a bit like having a the tonic of a major chord as the melody and a maj7 chord in the harmony (another flat-9 violation between the melody and the top note of the chord). I guess you could use the F if you were really sneaky about it, but it might raise some eyebrows.

The only issue is if you use the F as a predominant melody note But it is fine, and often much better than F#, if used as a passing note. (Just ask someone like Charlie Parker)

This is another problem with scales for chords - people think that all the notes can be used any old how. But a D minor harmonic really is fine if you use it the way most decent improvisers do. So you know the notes of your chord (E G Bb D) and you know the notes of the key centre (D minor scale - harmonic or whatever), and you know how to build a melody on that chord by using the chord notes as a basic framework and the other scale notes as appropriate.

In this case F is better than F# because you are in D minor. But it works best e.g. as a passing note not blatted out as a long note over the chord on a strong beat.

But if you want a scale that provides all notes that will sound good at any placement on the chord but with no attention to creative melodic improvising then this is a different issue.

 

[Jazz House]

The only issue is if you use the F as a predominant melody note But it is fine, and often much better than F#, if used as a passing note. (Just ask someone like Charlie Parker)

This is another problem with scales for chords - people think that all the notes can be used any old how. But a D minor harmonic really is fine if you use it the way most decent improvisers do. So you know the notes of your chord (E G Bb D) and you know the notes of the key centre (D minor scale - harmonic or whatever), and you know how to build a melody on that chord by using the chord notes as a basic framework and the other scale notes as appropriate.

In this case F is better than F# because you are in D minor. But it works best e.g. as a passing note not blatted out as a long note over the chord on a strong beat.

But if you want a scale that provides all notes that will sound good at any placement on the chord but with no attention to creative melodic improvising then this is a different issue.

Thanks Pete! When I wrote my reply, I should have made a distinction between using the F as a passing note and using it as a longer melody note. This, of course, makes a huge difference!

The D harmonic minor is great and if you use it judiciously, you can make it sound like you're using snippets of a variety of other scales.

And yes, people thinking they can just run up and down the scale almost at random is a common problem with this approach. Reminds me of a story my old teacher told me about someone asking Jerry Bergonzi for the most appropriate blues scale to use for the entirety of All the Things You Are. Good luck with that one....!