[clarnibass]

Hi

Wondering what the permagold finish is. I first heard about it when I got a sax with a silver/nickel finish, and someone told me it was apparently unusual and that this particular model almost always had the permagold finish.

Thanks

 

[milandro]

We have discussed with you permagold in a PM.

There are also other discussions on the forum

Permagold is an alloy often used in jewellery, looks like gold and is not it was used in at least two different brands Dolnet used it only on the ROYAL JAZZ model and SML used it too.

Perma-gold is Zinc Dichromate it is a trade mark name

https://www.unistrutohio.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/library/unistrut-perma-gold-finish-information.pdf

Perma-Gold Saxophone Finish on SML Saxophones - www.GetASax.com

In the case of saxophone finishes, not all that glitters is gold. Buyers and sellers often mistake lacquer for gold plate, but Perma-gold looks even more like gold. Perma-what? It’s a dichromate mineral-based coating that typically goes over a metal like zinc, or possibly nickel. This short post...

www.getasax.com

“...

Perma-Gold is mostly a curiosity, but it is important when buying a vintage SML (Strasser Marigaux Lemaire) saxophone. There may also be perma-gold Selmers, because there are vintage Selmers (Modele 26-era) whose finish is marked PG in the log books. Who knows? Let me know in the comments if you happen to own one!
Permagold looks a lot like gold – so much so that it has been banned in some countries for use in jewelry! So one can hardly fault sellers of permagold-plated SML saxophones for selling their horns as gold-plated...."

“..
To complicate matters, since gold plate is usually applied over silver plate on saxophones, and silver looks a lot like zinc, even partially worn-off permagold still looks superficially like worn gold plate. But if you are in the market for a nice SML, here is how to tell the difference.
1. Every permagold SML so far has shown a distinctive flaky pattern to the wear. I suspect that this is because dichromate is a mineral, so it flakes off in little chips, whereas gold wears off like metals do, rubbing uniformly thinner on touch points until the silver underneath starts to show through gradually. It also burns off like lacquer, but is even more fragile. Check out the neck tenon burn mark on my SML tenor....."

 

[KMR]

There may also be perma-gold Selmers, because there are vintage Selmers (Modele 26-era) whose finish is marked PG in the log books. Who knows? Let me know in the comments if you happen to own one!.

I have a Selmer cigar cutter alto, and Douglas Phiper tells me that it was shipped from France with the permagold finish

 

[Bkenes]

Milandro covered it perfectly!
Horns with perma gold is often priced higher than those with normal lacquer. Perma gold is much rarer than lacquer, especially in a near mint condition.
I wouldn't like to have a perma gold horn as my personal horn though, as perma gold easily flakes off. Lacquer lasts a lot longer!
This is not to say "stay away"... it's more meant as a heads up.

 

[clarnibass]

Thanks. I was mostly interested in what it is and I guess a mineral is the basic explanation. Does it have actual metal (gold) in it? Do the saxophones usually have a zinc plate layer (or nickel, or something else) under the permagold?I buy a lot of supplies from jewellery suppliers and I've never heard of it, but maybe it's just not common anymore (or isn't used here, possibly).

 

[milandro]

No no gold at all in permagod precisely as in Nickel-Silver there is NO silver.

Permagold is also banned in some countries because it looks like gold but , as mentioned almost always flakes (Most Dolnets Royal Jazz I have seen are flaked some places) however if it is not flaked it may stay stabile forever.


See how complex the process is.... plenty of possibilities to go wrong


Permagold is applied on Zinc.

Don Byas Donet Royal Jazz appars to have resisted very well but they are not aLL LIKE THAT

 

[milandro]

I have a Selmer cigar cutter alto, and Douglas Phiper tells me that it was shipped from France with the permagold finish

to be fair that quote was from get a sax site ... (which I did quote in quotation marks)

 

[KMR]

to be fair that quote was from get a sax site ... (which I did quote in quotation marks)

Ah, I see now.
sorry about the confusion. I thought it was you looking for info re Selmers.

anyway, hopefully my post will be of interest.

 

[1saxman]

The black area on that neck would look a lot better if polished with metal polish.

 

[milandro]

The black area on that neck would look a lot better if polished with metal polish.

you are probably referring to the Get-A_sax SML saxophone but this is not what OP is asking (not would be apparent to anyone reading this thread unless the have opened that particular link)

 

[Peter Wright]

The name perma-gold seems somewhat ironic, given it almost always flakes.

 

[1saxman]

70 years and still looks pretty damn good. Wish I could say the same for me. 🤣

 

[1saxman]

you are probably referring to the Get-A_sax SML saxophone but this is not what OP is asking (not would be apparent to anyone reading this thread unless the have opened that particular link)

View attachment 125135

I'm referring to the picture and anyone's elucidation who might care to know. Are you the official relevancy monitor?

 

[saxoclese]

This is an interesting thread. I had not heard of "perma-gold" or zinc chromate/dichromate before reading this thread. My interpretation of the information given so far is that the "zinc dichromate" is a zinc with a yellow color that is plated over a base coat of regular zinc. The standard electroplating sequence I use in my home plating set-up from Rio Grande Jewelry is very similar to the one shown for zinc dichromate:

• Degrease
• Electroclean
• Rinse
• Acid surface activator
• Rinse
• Plate base coat
• Rinse
• Acid surface activator
• Rinse
• Final plate coat

Each step uses a separate distilled water rinse to avoid cross contamination. The only step that is different is the one called "Active Rinse---chemically treated rinse water". Gold plating works well with a base coat of bright nickel plating. Silver plating works well with a base coat of copper plating. A fast/very thin base coat plating is typically called a "flash". "Flaking" is a tell tale sign that due to some error or omission in the preparation steps, there is poor adhesion to the base layer.

 

[saxophender]

The name perma-gold seems somewhat ironic, given it almost always flakes.

Here in Siberia have permafrost. Permafrost never flake. Maybe should try on horn.

 

[JL]

Wondering what the permagold finish is. I first heard about it when I got a sax with a silver/nickel finish, and someone told me it was apparently unusual and that this particular model almost always had the permagold finish.

First time I've ever heard of "permagold." If it really flakes off faster than lacquer, I'd avoid it.

But I was going to ask you what is a "silver/nickel" finish? Then milandro stated there is no silver in a silver/nickel finish, so that sure clarifies it!
This begs the question: How can they call it silver/nickel, if it has no silver in it? Must be show business!

Best bet, imo, is to stick with (real) silver plate or (real) gold plate. The gold is of course plated over silver plate.

 

[saxoclese]

Nickel Silver Brass is an alloy containing roughly 66% copper, 34% zinc whereas nickel silver contains 62% copper, 18% zinc and 20% nickel. Adding nickel to the mix gives it a silver rather than yellow (brass) color. It is common on student woodwinds to have nickel silver keys. They don't bend as easily as brass keys and don't tarnish as fast as silver plated keys. Nickel is the ideal substrate for gold plating. I found recently that a clarinet with nickel silver keys had enough nickel content to gold plate as well as a clarinet with nickel plated keys. The test of time will be the final arbiter of how well the plating wears and adheres to the keys.

 

[sax0naut]

I once had an Alto plated in „Permasilver“. I have never seen something like that before and after.
Maybe that is like the one the threadopener has.

Definitely a matte zincplate under a flaking shiny silvery surface. The kind of flaking was exactly looking like on the permagold ones.
No nickelplate (zincplate not brass under it) as some of you proposed and no silverplate (no oxydation of surface) at all, clear original engraving without buffing marks, so the original finish from SML for sure.

Pictures in the thread:

Ever Heard or Seen "Perma Silver" as an SML...

I have the chance to buy a Ref. D alto, 11xxx serial. I could only have a look at some pictures so far and may see and playtest the horn at saturday. The seller assumes that it is silver plated but the wear of the finish in the pictures I`ve seen so far looks definitely more like the ones that...

www.saxontheweb.net

 

[clarnibass]

This is an interesting thread. I had not heard of "perma-gold" or zinc chromate/dichromate before reading this thread. My interpretation of the information given so far is that the "zinc dichromate" is a zinc with a yellow color that is plated over a base coat of regular zinc. The standard electroplating sequence I use in my home plating set-up from Rio Grande Jewelry is very similar to the one shown for zinc dichromate

So is it actual metal (zinc) combined with something else? Or...? I'm trying to understand better what it actually is. Is it plated like e.g. silver plating is plated over... whatever it is plated over? If over a zinc plate, is the zinc plate plated over the base metal like nickel plating, etc.?

First time I've ever heard of "permagold." If it really flakes off faster than lacquer, I'd avoid it.

I was just curious to understand what it is.

But I was going to ask you what is a "silver/nickel" finish? Then milandro stated there is no silver in a silver/nickel finish, so that sure clarifies it!
This begs the question: How can they call it silver/nickel, if it has no silver in it? Must be show business!

This was just unnecessary info I added to the post, background to why I was curious about permagold. I could have just said this particular sax has a different plating from the usual permagold... or not even mention it at all. The sax has a silver/nickel plating in that the body is silver and the keys are nickel. At least that's what it looks like. Now that permasilver is mentioned below... who knows...

It is common on student woodwinds to have nickel silver keys

It's not really common on student woodwinds specifically. Student and pro model saxophones almost always have brass keys. All levels of clarinets and oboes almost always have nickel-silver keys.

 

[milandro]

what I don’t understand (and also didn’t in our private message ) is that I have nevber seen a “ permasilver “ Royal Jazz. They apparently had that on SML

as usual searching helps and I found the same thread posted above

so they do exist

But is what this Dolnet is? We haven’t seen pics yet



I have seen plenty and owned a few Silver plate and nickel plate Dolnets.

Could this mistery finish be no permagold at all but just some nickel finish? About Nickel-Silver, with the exception of few saxophones Some Super 20 and Martin Magna, which have mechanics made of solid nickel-silver ( unbendable) it is rare for saxophones to have solid Nickel Silver parts, plating on the body I have not seen (while Nickel and not Nickel Silver, plating was very common in Europe Especially in Germany, Bohemia and France at least by some brands) , saxophones, especially cheaper models although Selmer had them too, may have Nickel Silver plated keys (in fact the two tone saxophone is generally associated to student’s because from some point onward they were mostly like this ) but only much later people started making Nickel Silver bodies (more expensive) .
Nickel plating too may occasionally flake, especially if not applied very well, so you may have there a Nickel plated body. Permagold is absolutely Yellow, with a hue that makes it look like “ old “ gold but isn’t.

apparently this is permasilver