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Distinguished Member, Forum Contributor 2008-2017
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Discussion Starter #1
Wondering what might influence more in the shape of specific sound, the neck or the body (I mean, the rest of the horn).

Thanks,

JI
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2013-
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Please excuse me for seeking some clarity here.

What I understand you to propose as a question goes something like this:

You have 4 differing makes of tenors. You have 4 differing makes of necks.

Each neck will play in tune with each tenor.

By comparing every combination, would you conclude that it is the body or the neck that most alters the sound?

[I am not asserting that this is the kind of thing you were thinking of. Perhaps you were thinking of something else. I thought of other possible meanings. If this post is distracting, let me know and I will give it a "whoops!" and delete the content.]
 

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I agree with click, neck and body are part of a system.

Anyway the system has other variants too.

The oral cavity and embouchure of the player.

The reed.

The mouthpiece on its own and as part of the system.

So, does the neck have a bearing on intonation?

Sure. Volume, taper and length have a bearing on intonation, not to mention the position of the octave pip.

Does the body have a considerable bearing on intonation?


Of course, why else do you think that people go on that much on key height, different length and diameters of tubing (bows) in different series of the Mark VI (for example) and the positioning od crescents (if one does that thing).

But this has all a bearing on intonation. Together.

As for the sound, and intonation too, the most important variant is the player.

We generally don’t say that Michael Brecker had a Selmer sound (and a Silverplate neck) we say that he had a Brecker sound.

My favorite is always Sonny Rollins that played on countless mouthpieces and at least three different brands ( Buescher King and Selmer) and always sounded like Sonny Rollins

So, is it the neck, the body, the mouthpiece, the player, the reeds?

:whistle:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks for making it clear.

Please excuse me for seeking some clarity here.

What I understand you to propose as a question goes something like this:

You have 4 differing makes of tenors. You have 4 differing makes of necks.

Each neck will play in tune with each tenor.

By comparing every combination, would you conclude that it is the body or the neck that most alters the sound?

[I am not asserting that this is the kind of thing you were thinking of. Perhaps you were thinking of something else. I thought of other possible meanings. If this post is distracting, let me know and I will give it a "whoops!" and delete the content.]
 

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Distinguished Member, Forum Contributor 2008-2017
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Discussion Starter #5
Yeap, you helped me a lot. About the key heights, etc. But, I wanted to narrow the conversation without having the player, the reeds, the mouthpiece.

I agree with click, neck and body are part of a system.

Anyway the system has other variants too.

The oral cavity and embouchure of the player.

The reed.

The mouthpiece on its own and as part of the system.

So, does the neck have a bearing on intonation?

Sure. Volume, taper and length have a bearing on intonation, not to mention the position of the octave pip.

Does the body have a considerable bearing on intonation?


Of course, why else do you think that people go on that much on key height, different length and diameters of tubing (bows) in different series of the Mark VI (for example) and the positioning od crescents (if one does that thing).

But this has all a bearing on intonation. Together.

As for the sound, and intonation too, the most important variant is the player.

We generally don’t say that Michael Brecker had a Selmer sound (and a Silverplate neck) we say that he had a Brecker sound.

My favorite is always Sonny Rollins that played on countless mouthpieces and at least three different brands ( Buescher King and Selmer) and always sounded like Sonny Rollins

So, is it the neck, the body, the mouthpiece, the player, the reeds?

:whistle:
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
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Wow ....this thread got off to an interesting start (in a good way).

So :|....another way to examine this might be to ask:

If I had two different sax bodies and one single neck which worked with both....would that produce a more varied tone between the two combinations than....

...if I had two necks and a single body ?
 

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the answer is:

It depends

if the neck would be so important as to be fundamental it would be ridiculous to put aftermarket necks for sale that are not a perfect match to one horn for sale on other saxophones, but also the other way around, if the body would be that important then it would be impossible to match something not specific to it.

When I saw this video I was cured of many hangups. If you can make a neck out of copper pipes for household appliance then things are not that critical.

 

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Dude...despite the fact he is a good musician...that guy is 100% bullsh#t and his video is just clickbait. He didn't make a neck for $1.75...he didn't use a piece of plumbing pipe (unless it was the most unique piece of plumbing pipe EVER made for domestic use...because it is of course tapered...and in 25+ years as an architect, I never saw a piece of tapered copper plumbing pipe either installed or available at any supply store.

So that neck was not produced in his home for pennies in a DIY fashion. Crock of poop.

Clickbait.

Honestly, a very misleading and downright lying video. I would not be inclined to lean on it for any sort of supportive argument...
 

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it is not tapered, we already went through this in another thread

It is clearly made of three different sections




I'll pay him 3.50 for one for my horn. He doubles his money ?
You can ask directly, he is a member here (and I have no particular reason to distrust a fellow member )

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/member.php?75547-bob-magnuson

Hey Saxcop,

I am glad my neck became something of good conversation here. I did nothing to the parts other than beeswax them together and then used the torch only after pitch was in a close place.I got lucky with how things just fit together and especially the actual sax neck socket. Glad to be part of this forum, thank you, Bob Magnuson
 

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And I've tried many necks. My intonation issues weren't a factor. I didn't have noticeable ones. I do a video on You tube of three necks on two different horns. The necks make a big difference. That why you see many many pros buying aftermarket necks. like Gloger. k
 

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it is not tapered, we already went through this in another thread

It is made of three different sections


You can ask directly, he is a member here
Ah....I see that , thanks....I stand corrected.

Fact is, however...it isn't a $1.75 neck. There are 3 pieces of pipe soldered together with connectors. Then there is a tenon. Then there is a key saddle, octave key and pip.

Pieces of pipe and connectors at a harware store = $5-10.

Alto tenon = $15

Key and saddle (chinese generic) = $15

Pip = $5 (or make one from a piece of brass rod and drill it...so still $5 for the rod and drill bit)

Soft solder and flux = $10 (or knock yourself out and use 'beeswax', which would be more expensive than flux)

Torch = $10

Total cost = $65

Cost of a generic Alto neck on eFlay = $35

You can buy two factory-made alto necks of same tenon size with slightly differing specifications for the same price of 'making' that '$1.75' neck at home.

Therefore....that video is still a lie. The cost of that neck was not $1.75.

And a person cannot 'make a sax neck' for $1.75.

Anyway, digression on my part to Zorro's question....and thanks for the correction.....
 

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I think that the price is irrelavant the point is that one can make a neck of tubing and that is pretty much proven by Mr. Magnusson in his video, whether more or less expensive, to me, to the purpose of illustrating my reasoning in this thread, it is irrelevant.
 

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I think that the price is irrelavant the point is that one can make a neck of tubing and that is pretty much proven by Mr. Magnusson in his video, whether more or less expensive, to me, to the purpose of this thread, it is irrelevant.
The price is not irrelevant in regards to what his vid is pitching....because it was the price claim which was clickbait. Therefore what he claims in his vid is a lie.

Indeed you are correct in that it shows it is apparently possible to construct one and have it work to some degree.
 

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thank you, that was my case
 

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thank you, that was my case
Fair enough...and thanks for the clarification....so since I untracked the convo...let me re-track it.....

if the neck would be so important as to be fundamental it would be ridiculous to put aftermarket necks for sale that are not a perfect match to one horn for sale on other saxophones, but also the other way around, if the body would be that important then it would be impossible to match something not specific to it.

When I saw this video I was cured of many hangups. If you can make a neck out of copper pipes for household appliance then things are not that critical.
~ In certain models I can think of, the BODY IS so unique in its specification that a non-factory neck match is incredibly hard. Martin Comm III being one example which jumps to my mind (and not because of the tightening mechanism, but because of the uniqueness of the neck design)

~ although (according to your interpretation of the vid) the fact that one can build a home-made jobber at all and have it 'work' indicates 'things are not that critical' (a statement which in certain respects I can agree with)....

...isn't it interesting that two necks which have gotten the 'important' specifications right enough in order to produce decent intonation.....can also produce significantly different tonalities ?

(I am not being a wise-guy, that was a serious Q).

That is what I find interesting.....because that would lead me to posit that something in the difference in specifications between two necks is the opposite of 'not that critical'.

Both intone the horn well...yet something unidentical has altered the sound significantly.

 

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So in regards to Zorro's question, and my initial query to it:

Two situations (pared down from the more interesting 4 which Click came up with):

a) I have ONE horn body, and 2 necks.

b) I have TWO horn bodies and 1 neck.

Would the a) situation produce 'two more dramatically different sounding saxes' so to speak...than the b) situation ?
 

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And I've tried many necks. My intonation issues weren't a factor. I didn't have noticeable ones. I do a video on You tube of three necks on two different horns. The necks make a big difference. That why you see many many pros buying aftermarket necks. like Gloger. k
I know you have linked to that vid of yours before....would you mind providing that link again ?
 

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This thread has gone an interesting direction. My response to the original question is to point out that neither the neck nor the body of the saxophone "produce the sound". They do however shape and amplify the sound wave(s). A better question then would be "which has the greatest influence or effect on the sound---the neck or the body"? A basic principle I have learned in band instrument repair and acoustics is that the part(s) closest to where the sound is produced have the greatest effect. It goes without saying that in a reed woodwind the mouthpiece has the greatest influence on the sound. On the flute it is the embouchure hole and its parts. Next would be the neck for the saxophone, the barrel for the clarinet, the bocal for the bassoon, and the headjoint for the flute. On brasswind instruments it is the leadpipe.

In terms of repair, the closer to where the sound is produced the dent or other imperfection in the tube is located, the greater effect it has upon the sound and possibly the intonation. Very small changes in the interior wall surface of a saxophone neck or in its taper can have significant effects on the harmonics of the soundwave which in turn affect the timbre and intonation of the soundwaves emitted through the toneholes and bell. Dr. Pauline Eveno in her saxophone "pad cover" (resonator) study used four Yamaha model YAS-480 saxophones with sequential serial numbers for the test, but used a single neck from one of the saxophones for all of the trials to "minimize measurement discrepancies".
 

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the neck to body matching predicament (with respect of intonation, which is a separate issue than tone) is one I have only had to deal few times.

A Buescher stencil for Getzen worked well with the Noblet replacement that had been replaced (I didn’t know at the time) before I had bought it, the buyer liked it but bought a Buescher neck and for a while preferred the Noblet neck and then later on grew to prefer the Buescher but this shows that the neck may SOMETIMES be replaced with one of different design.

I had a Super 20 alto with an overslung neck which intonation I wasn’t pleased with.

I bought a Yanagisawa neck and the intonation was still not pleasing (the body?). I sold the horn to a Carnatic player who liked it.

Recently I had a very late Super 20 solid silver neck, the design was completely different from my super 20 (looked more like a Selmer arch than a King arch). Still I could try on my Super 20, there were very few and not easily appreciable differences.
 
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