[zxcvbnm]

On this forum, I hear a lot of "sax X has very good intonation", or "sax Y has bad intonation with mouthpiece X". Exactly what is considered good intonation though? I'm assuming it is when all the notes are within ten cents. I've played a few vintage Bueschers, which are considered to have the best intonation of all vintage saxes, and they were worse than my student yamaha. The reason I'm asking is that I'm still looking for an alto, and when I'm trying them out, I kinda need a guideline or reference point to compare them to. Thanks for clarifying this.

 

[Subbie]

Good intonation for me is the characteristic of a horn not to need very much conscious or subconscious lipping up or down to attain a note which is in tune. Some setups just don't work.
Also, when trying different horns than the one you are using, you will automatically lip up/down notes that need it on your horn. Try to get used to a horn really trying it for a few weeks before deciding on buying or chucking it. If you hate it from the very moment it touches your hand, don't bother.

 

[zxcvbnm]

Yeah, but my question was more of, What is a note that is in tune? Is having it within 5-10 cents good enough, or does it have to be spot on?

 

[Subbie]

Making all notes on the spot is pretty impossible with such a complex instrument. It really depends on you. As long as it's fairly easy for you to get the right note after a few seconds without too much strain, you should adapt quite well over time.
If all you're searching for is the perfect intonation with your chops used to your horn, you're in for a very similar horn like the one you're playing. Give it all some time and don't rush any decisions.

 

[Henry D]

"The stuff that dreams are made of...."

 

[Enviroguy]

For me, good intonation is when you play a note. Any note without looking at the tuner. Then while playing it, you glance at the tuner, and you are pretty well dead on.

It doesn't mean the needle won't swing a little while you are playing and is doesn't mean that you can just stare at the tuner and blow at perfect pitch without having to listen to yourself. Because, in the end, it's the player that has to have the good intonation. The horn can only help.

 

[hakukani]

From wikipedia:

"It is difficult to establish how many cents are perceptible to humans; this accuracy varies greatly from person to person. One author stated that humans can distinguish a difference in pitch of about 5-6 cents.[1] The threshold of what is perceptible also varies as a function of the timbre of the pitch: in one study, changes in tone quality negatively impacted student musicians' ability to recognize as out-of-tune pitches that deviated from their appropriate values by +/- 12 cents.[2] It has also been established that increased tonal context enables listeners to judge pitch more accurately.[3]
When listening to pitches with vibrato, there is evidence that humans perceive the mean frequency as the center of the pitch.[4] One study of vibrato in western vocal music found a variation in cents of vibrato typically ranged between +/-34 cents and +/-123 cents, with a mean variation of +/-71 cents; the variation was much higher on Verdi opera arias.[5]
Normal adults are able to recognize pitch differences of as small as 25 cents very reliably. Adults with amusia, however, have trouble recognizing differences of less than 100 cents and sometimes have trouble with these or larger interval

So it would appear that if you plus or minus 3-5 cents, you're pretty much 'in tune'. Unless you're playing a unison, where you can better hear the 'beat' frequencies.

 

[Al Stevens]

Good intonation is one thing in a solo. It's quite another thing in a section. The operative word being "good."

 

[JL]

I've played a few vintage Bueschers, which are considered to have the best intonation of all vintage saxes, and they were worse than my student yamaha.

There is something odd here. My old TT Buescher alto was considerably easier to play in tune than a modern "pro" Yamaha Custom alto I had. The Buescher tenors are even more spot-on, in my experience. But really it's not so much the brand of horn. It's up to the player. To answer the question, I think good intonation has more to do with using you ear and playing in tune with the other instruments.

 

[Dr G]

... and spending enough time on ONE horn to know and predictively correct its intonation quirks.

 

[Morry]

If I can play within 10 cents without checking a tuner, then I can tune my self easily within a section. If I have a horn that has tendencies forcing me to work too hard to stay in that range, then I can't play it enjoyably in a section.

 

[Hurling Frootmig]

On this forum, I hear a lot of "sax X has very good intonation", or "sax Y has bad intonation with mouthpiece X". Exactly what is considered good intonation though? I'm assuming it is when all the notes are within ten cents. I've played a few vintage Bueschers, which are considered to have the best intonation of all vintage saxes, and they were worse than my student yamaha. The reason I'm asking is that I'm still looking for an alto, and when I'm trying them out, I kinda need a guideline or reference point to compare them to. Thanks for clarifying this.

It all depends on what mouthpiece you put on the end of it. I've found the Buescher's to really play well with medium to large chamber pieces. A small chamber Meyer is going to require really good ears and talent to keep it in good tune. Fairly different design philosophies between a Buescher and a Yamaha (essentially a Mark VI variant).

As some others have pointed out it is a matter of also adjusting to your horn and the tendencies of it. If you're used to adjusting for the Yamaha you'll have to spend time with the Buescher to get used to it. The way I like to put it is that every horn has its own temperament and you need to learn how the horn responds before passing judgment. My VI alto has different tuning needs than my Buescher 140 than my Super Action 80.

 

[jbtsax]

Playing in tune is simply the ability to "match pitch" either with the other musicians you are playing with or with the pitch you hear in your head. Intonation is relative. A good musician can play the most out-of-tune sax in tune, and a poor musician will play out-of-tune on the best instrument made.

As an exercise I used to have my band students "untune" their instruments by moving their tuning device either in or out, and then play unisons, chords, scales, and chorales in tune by "humoring" (lipping) the pitch. As soon as they learned that they have to play in tune and not rely on their instruments to play in tune for them, the group's intonation grew by leaps and bounds---and these were 7th graders!

Of course a well made instrument with an accurate scale makes the whole process easier so the musician can focus more on other aspects of the music, but even then the player is the determining factor as far as the intonation is concerned.

John

 

[stefank]

If it sounds in tune then it's in tune!

Electronic devices may sometimes be of assistance, but there is absolutely no substitute for listening.

The other questions that should be raised are "In tune with what?", "are we talking equal temperament or just intonation?", and probably a few others. It's a can of worms!

 

[SaxyAcoustician]

Intonation "quirks" are not exclusive to the horn. What about the mouthpiece? What about the godforsaken reed? Every time I put on a new reed I have to recalibrate. Argh!

 

[zxcvbnm]

Btw, with the Buescher, I was using a Caravan large chamber, which is supposedly a really good match.

 

[JL]

Btw, with the Buescher, I was using a Caravan large chamber, which is supposedly a really good match.

I've used all sorts of mpcs on my Bueschers and they all work well intonation-wise. On the alto, both a HR Otto Link and a Jody Jazz work great. Something else is going on......