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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o40smfOyIso

Actually I already know it's a Bundy, which was basically a Buescher stencil of the popular Aristocrat. The main thing I'm wondering is if it's the small-bell variety of the Aristocrat design. It appears to be, which would account for it's highly focused Selmer-like sound.

Also, Shorter apparently played this horn on most, if not all, of his legendary 1964 Blue Note recordings, including Night Dreamer, JuJu and Speak No Evil. How do I know this? Well, the clip above is from the quintet's legendary European tour in the fall of 1964, and he was still on the Bundy (Buescher) then. But the main giveaway is the fact that he played this horn on his first studio recording with Miles, ESP, in January 1965 (this is a classic story, including Miles's negative reaction to the horn in the early days of the quintet). Night Dreamer was recorded in the spring of 1964, Juju in August, and Speak No Evil in December of that turbulent year in which we were invaded by those moptops from across the pond.

The stories about this horn are legendary--how Shorter was supposedly holding it together with rubber bands and tape when he first starting playing with Miles, and how his new bandleader offered to buy him a new Mark VI (which he did). But when you watch these old clips and listen to the Blue Note records listed above (his best, according to many) you don't get the same impression. It sounds like it was one rippin' horn and that he got around on it pretty well indeed. I'm sure Wayne would not have recorded with it otherwise.

For years I mistakenly thought he was playing a VI on those dates. And I still have a tough time picking out which horn he's on on different records. For example, he's on the Selmer on Adam's Apple, and it's really hard to tell the difference when comparing his sound on that disc and Speak No Evil.

Well, just makes me even more glad that I was lucky enough to acquire an all-original (snaps, Norton's, etc.) small bell Crat from a reputable dealer for about 1/4 of the price of a VI. I mean, when it comes right down to it, when you've got the same player on the same mouthpiece on both horns, is it really that easy to tell the difference in a double-blind?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
One thing that has been noted previously by Dave Dix and which bears repeating, is that "small-bell Crat" (or Big B) is not really an accurate description of these horns. It's the bell flare that is not as wide as the later 156, not the bell itself, which is just as large (if not larger?) then the 156.

One thing's for sure these horns are underrated in the power department.
 

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If that's the same horn he recorded "Ju-Ju" on the liner photo clearly shows that it is a Bundy. B-U-N-D-Y. As in, "Bundy One."

+ + +

Just picture players scrambling for old Bundys . . . in the quest to sound like Wayne Shorter on "Ju-Ju" . . .
 

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I thought it was interesting how the timbre of the horn appeared to totally brighten when he turned toward the lower mic at about 4:00.
 

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hakukani said:
I thought it was interesting how the timbre of the horn appeared to totally brighten when he turned toward the lower mic at about 4:00.
I think that upper mic was probably out. I do it at home sometimes; turn away from the mic or play with the side of the horn towards the mic just to explore the sound difference.
 

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As I've said in the past, this is a disgustion forum, and questions are not always to be answered, but are sometimes rhetorical, in order to stimulate disgustion. So, let's continue disgusting....:D
 

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hakukani said:
As I've said in the past, this is a disgustion forum, and questions are not always to be answered, but are sometimes rhetorical, in order to stimulate disgustion. So, let's continue disgusting....:D
How did you come up with your new word? ......

Oh I already know it's discussion and disgusting put together.
 

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What Steely Dan solo is Shorter famous for?

I already know it was Aja.................


Hey I like this you get to ask cool questions then answer them yourself.
 

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playitfunky said:
How did you come up with your new word? ......

Oh I already know it's discussion and disgusting put together.

I teach high school:cool:

I have one of these old bundy Is tenors---except mine has no engraving and has Bundy with Selmer under it. The keywork is identical to the one Shorter is playing. I hate the left hand pinky keys and the right hand pearls just plain bite. The horn sounds fine. It gets out of adjustment fairly easy, so I have to be careful with it.

I much prefer my MkVI.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
playitfunky said:
So let me get this right. You ask a question in the thread title, then answer it yourself. What do you need any of us for?
You're right, I already knew it was a Bundy, I was just wondering what iteration it was in terms of the Buescher it was modeled after. My hunch is that it is a true vintage (vintage vintage?) Bundy (i.e., not the ones we're most familiar with from the 1960s but those from the 40's and 50's).

There is a photo of Shorter taken during the JuJu sessions in his recent biography, and the horn looks to be a vintage Bundy (again VERY vintage) modeled after the so-called "small bell" Aristocrat.

So yes, my question was pretty specific, and I should have probably posted it in the Buesher section.

Where's Dave Dix when you need him? Or Bootman, or JL....?
 

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Does anyone know about the early Bundy piccolos? I bought one in the 1960s from a classical flute player who played in orchestras around Los Angeles. He said it was one of the first Bundy piccolos. It actually has a really nice tone. The serial number is 5953.
 

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Good luck on the serial number dating business. The older Bundy models were Elkharts vice Bueschers in terms of serial numbers- and I have yet to find a decent set of those numbers. While the Elkharts were clearly very close to identical to the Bueschers of the same era they were by and large based upon older models and had neither the snap in pads/ resos nor the Norton springs.

Quasi stencils...

Perfectly fine playing horns IMHO- key work is what it is; some like it, some hate it, many adapt to it.
 

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So who built this Bundy sax if not Buescher? Conn?

I like the horn better than my King Zephyr that was overhauled and repadded 2 months ago. I also find the keywork easier to use than my Zephyr interesting enough. More focus and pop from the Bundy. It just came in before I was heading to rehearsal and I unpacked it there and right out of the case it played better than my Zephyr.

Also has a different vibe than any of my Conn 10Ms or 16Ms. I might go so far and say this is the best tenor I own.
 
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