[AmandasDad]

Sorry if this has been asked before.
If it has been just direct me to the thread.

Anyway, I was wondering how reed strength is determined, and not numerically.
We're all aware that manufacturers each have their own way of assigning strength, a 2 of one manufacturer is a 2.5 for another.

But when there is a comparison list, and it seems most manufacturer have one online, what determines where reeds 'fit' compared to one another?

Will there ever be a universal recognized sizing for reeds?

 

[Stretch]

It's the thickness that determines the strength. Vandoren and Rico do not have consistent sizing within their own product lines.

 

[SveinJo]

There are several reed strength charts on the web. You can find most of them here: http://www.saxplus.com/reed-strength-chart.html.

 

[Phil1]

Actually a reed's strength is measured by a machine and graded accordingly, not it's thickness.

The strength measurement part begins at 1:56 and goes to 2:08.

Excellent sound and playing by Jerry Bergonzi also.

There is a better video out there of the grading process but I can't find it at the moment.

 

[saxmusicguy]

Actually a reed's strength is measured by a machine and graded accordingly, not it's thickness.

That was an interesting video. When Vandoren was selling "Hand Select" reeds, what exactly were they doing by hand? Did they play on the reeds to test them?

 

[AmandasDad]

I suppose it is too difficult to standardize reeds by strength......unless it's a range......
"This packet of reeds measure 1:56-1:60 in strength", "This packet of reeds measure 1:61-1:70 in strength", etc.

Seems silly that, even within certain manufacturers, reed numbering isn't standardized.

 

[daigle65]

It's the thickness that determines the strength. Vandoren and Rico do not have consistent sizing within their own product lines.

All reed strengths of the same cut have the same thickness, it's the density of the cane that makes them harder or softer.

A #5 reed isn't any thicker than a #1.

 

[Oric Muso]

Yes, that's correct. Reeds are made to a pattern and then tested with a machine which presses near the tip and how much it bends determines the strength. Of course this amount will vary when the reed is wet so it's never that accurate.
What I don't understand is why a 2 in one type doesn't seem to match a 2 of a different type, even within the same manufacturer. I guess the different profile gives a altered curve so that the amount of flex doesn't exactly corrolate between different profiles.

I think the comparison charts are an approximation based on playing experience.

 

[retread]

But when there is a comparison list, and it seems most manufacturer have one online, what determines where reeds 'fit' compared to one another?

I think the most accurate answer to this question is "SWAG" (scientific wild-arsed guess). If you compare the comparison charts, this seems to be the best explanation.

 

[Agent27]

All reed strengths of the same cut have the same thickness, it's the density of the cane that makes them harder or softer.

A #5 reed isn't any thicker than a #1.

I had a teacher who bought into the myth of harder reeds being thicker. He liked to buy Vandoren 4's (or 5's, I can't remember) and work on them until they were playable. His logic was that the heart would be thicker than on say a 3 1/2 or 3 and that would make it sound better. Little did he know that he was was actually playing on thinner reeds due to the work he was required to do on them.

 

[chedoggy]

It's the thickness that determines the strength. Vandoren and Rico do not have consistent sizing within their own product lines.

this article suggests that cane density is what determines strength; http://www.clarinetreedmaking.com/?page_id=59

 

[Dr G]

Folks, the characteristic is "stiffness" not strength.

What determines the stiffness of the composite is the volume fraction and orientation of the constituent with the greatest elastic stiffness.

The various manufacturers are free to use their own numbering system as there is no governing body to create and maintain a standard. I find it interesting that so many of them are anywhere near similar.

 

[littlewailer]

Much like women's clothing sizes. A size 4 is a size 0 from a more expensive company........

Density determines reed stiffness.

In the years I've played I've only used reeds from the two big companies. Rico and Vandoren and I'll tell you if Rico had a wider variety of Jazz cut reeds I'd probably be using them now. But the only thing that annoys me about Vandoren is that their variation in a box can either be non existent or all over the place from box to box.

Very slight variation from Rico but I don't enjoy there product and variety as much.

My Equinox is coming (I'm hoping today......been for ever if you ask me) and I bought 2 ZZ's 2 Green Java's and 2 Red Java's and they all play (with a little tweaking) and give a blatantly different tone and feel.

The switch from Rico Royals to RJS is not as substantial.

 

[Jazzaferri]

Folks, the characteristic is "stiffness" not strength.

What determines the stiffness of the composite is the volume fraction and orientation of the constituent with the greatest elastic stiffness.

The various manufacturers are free to use their own numbering system as there is no governing body to create and maintain a standard. I find it interesting that so many of them are anywhere near similar.

The factors that I think have the bigget impact on stiffness are cane grain and density (how it has grown) thickness and shape, how even are the surface curves. NoW that i have gotten into measuring reeds with dial guage and micrometer :| :mrgreen: ( please i get it that i have reed ocd) i am surprised by how much shape and thickness variation there is in a box.

 

[florian]

Much like women's clothing sizes. A size 4 is a size 0 from a more expensive company........

Density determines reed stiffness.

In the years I've played I've only used reeds from the two big companies. Rico and Vandoren and I'll tell you if Rico had a wider variety of Jazz cut reeds I'd probably be using them now. But the only thing that annoys me about Vandoren is that their variation in a box can either be non existent or all over the place from box to box.

Very slight variation from Rico but I don't enjoy there product and variety as much.

My Equinox is coming (I'm hoping today......been for ever if you ask me) and I bought 2 ZZ's 2 Green Java's and 2 Red Java's and they all play (with a little tweaking) and give a blatantly different tone and feel.

The switch from Rico Royals to RJS is not as substantial.

Hi littlewailer, make sure you use new reeds on a new mpc and not used ones (i think you know this). I also buy from time to time 2 reeds of each model and brand for evaluation but my experience is that reeds are too inconsistent to judge them in general only by 2-3 reeds (how often did each one of us had a complete box with bad reeds). But like always it is a question of money.

 

[milandro]

making reeds is a complex process but it hardly involves much science (while in some cases it does involve automation)
See a few videos:
Different companies work in different ways but they all determine reed strength according to resistance

this Rico video shows the process at 1:56 they show that after cutting the reeds they are THEN measured for strength, in other words, after the cutting process one has a real and individual measure of the reed deflection by applying a gentle pressure and measure it with a dynamometer which will return a value which the brand has determined to be equal to a certain strength value. This value is totally arbitrary and like opening sizes 5, 6, 7, 8, and various stars means something only in relation of that particular brand (if at all! We know that in mouthpieces variation is incredible!).

A smaller company than Rico such as Marca (they make many boutique reeds) uses a much less sophisticated and automated process in almost all stages so variation could be even more accentuated in their production. They too test for resistance ( at 4:00) but see how the selection process is machine made here........(while at Rico it was completely manual)

Until not so long ago the Maccaferri Reed-O-meter was available for sale, it seems to have disappeared from the market.

It provided a simple but similar method to measure your reeds

on the other hand if you had bought the reeds you could have played them to determine whether they were more or less resistant and adjusting accordingly.

I find that all brands are unreliable and inconsistent when it comes to strength.

Lately I had this with both Ponzol ( made by Marca I think) and with Vandoren.

As I said despite the high tech of some machinery they all deal with a natural product with no real standards.

 

[mi000ke]

I find it amazing with such a high degree of automation (at least at Rico) that the strength and playability of reeds varies so much (to where I keep switching to synthetics, but they vary just as much). Assuming the manufacturing process is operating within desired tolerances, then either the tolerances are too lose or the grading process is too inaccurate. Or maybe they don't evaluate the raw cane well enough. I suspect that as economic pressure increases, the incentive to lower the quality standards for the cane they use does as well. So even if two reeds are the same strength/density and made to the same tolerances, one may play better than the other due to the internal structure of the cane itself.

 

[milandro]

I think that cane has seasonal variables hat make response very different. They only test one criterium and that is flexibility (indeed influenced by density )but there must be other things other than that that vary between harvests and one plant and another which by equal or simlar flexibility determine a different response.

I don’t think that in the past cane was any different than it is now, it must have been variable too! I once bought some very old but unused Omega and they were not consistent too.

The “ art” of working on the reeds to make up for reeds inconsistencies was not invented yesterday!

 

[Allen Halstead]

My Equinox is coming (I'm hoping today......been for ever if you ask me) and I bought 2 ZZ's 2 Green Java's and 2 Red Java's and they all play (with a little tweaking) and give a blatantly different tone and feel.

The switch from Rico Royals to RJS is not as substantial.

You will appreciate the wait .... when the Equinox arrives you will not be able to put the horn down ... Unfortunately I live in an area where I can't buy the reeds I want in pairs ... unless they are Royals or Vandoren traditionals ...so I always have to order my reeds by the box.

My equinox plays best with #3 Red Javas .. I believe that is what Phil recommends also ..... whenever I test a new mpc I always use at least 2 new reeds from a box ... and if there is a wide variation between them then I go to a third reed .... ...and I have always had boxes of consistent Vandoren reeds .... the opposite is true for me and Rico's ...

Just spent about $160 or so on reeds for my new soprano mouthpiece only to go back to the ones Joe G. (sopranoplanet) recommended to me in the first place!

Anyway, good luck with the Equinox!

 

[Mark Fleming]

I'm surprised that reeds are as consistant as they are, given the material and manufacturing process. When the cane is growing, it has the sun on one side and part of it is never in the sun. There is a prevailing wind, so that it grows with one side in compression and one side in tension. Then it is split into fourths completely independent of it's growth orientation. Splits from hundreds of cane poles are mixed together. The splits are then milled into reeds and tested for flexibility. The flexibility test (shown in the Marca video at 4:00) is simply testing the flex at the tip in one direction. Based on this test, some are called "1.5" and some are called "5."

The strength numbers are arbitrary in more ways than one. The flex test looks like it measures movement in one direction based on a given pressure. Not how fast the reed returns to it's original position. Not the flexural modulus from side-to-side, which could be considerable (as discussed in many reed finishing instructions). And not based on different "shear points," which would be the different facing lengths on a mouthpiece.

It's like somebody handing you a straight stick and saying "here's an arrow." Well, sort of. Depends on what you're shooting for.

Mark