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Discussion Starter #1
to me, P.Mauriat is too commercialized. We see their ads everywhere. The owner of this brand really spent LOTS of money on those ads in many magazines in different languages. And I am sure he is paying REALLY REALLY good money to those players who appear in the ads. The brand owner probably think he is part of Selmer, vintage this , vintage that, VI this, VI that, Paris this, Paris that, French this, French that.... Come on... GROW UP !!!! How much does it take to make a P.Mauriat sax ?? Probably 20% of it's selling price or maybe less...:? :?
 

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Smaller companies have to advertise and market themselves in order to stay alive, otherwise they would be swallowed alive. A company like Selmer can essentially coast with very little advertising because they have a userbase that is exceptionally brand loyal and they have already built up the name and the legend.

P. Mauriat has no legend. If it weren't for the ads, I would never had heard of them, and because of the ads, I would definitely like to try one some day.
 

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I guess you would never advertise your
product, because you're all grown up.

???
 

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Discussion Starter #4
brutlix said:
I guess you would never advertise your
product, because you're all grown up.

???
I think you misunderstood my point. P.mauriat has NOTHING to do with "France" "New York" "Paris" "Tokyo". And I couldn't even think their products have any connection with "vintage", and "VI" , etc.. these type of names, you konw what i mean.

Have you actually take a closer look of their product line ???

Also, I think these P.mauriat buyers are paying too much for their instruemnts. Do you know there are 4~5 different brands that actually have 100% the same body tube / material / key design as P.Mauriat , and cost almost 50% cheaper?? That's how Taiwanese saxophone manufacturers do things.. One type of "sax mould" can produce more than 5 names to the world..:?
 

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Well, Tissot, if only things in trade, advertising and marketing would be that easy it would be enough to offer on the market the right product at the right price and the people would find their way in a natural fashion to the product and make a choice based only on its own merits.

But things are very much more complicated.

The P.Mauriat company might be trying very hard to give themselves the image and the market position which you probably think can only be achieved with tradition and lineage. I am afraid that these aren't necessarily the reasons why people choose a particular product.


Musical instruments, like everything else, have very a symbolic position in communicating to yourself and to the outside world who you think you are or who you think you wanna be or want to look like (if all the people who have a saxophne could play it, in reality, as they play it in their minds while they " play" the saxophonist game....).


So, projecting a particular image, captures the immagination and locks you to a type of customers who fits that particular image you chose for your product. It is a combination of image and price level and it is called market positioning. It identifies a company and the choice this makes on the marketplace. No one company can possibly project an image which will fit all corners of the market place, because of conflicting messages. If you are the company of the beautiful classical instruments you can't play the cool cat too, it doesn't work.



On top of everything a company wants people to buy more than one product in their lifetime, so the introduction of new models might tempt you to buy a horn for the Vintage sound, a horn for the American sound, French sound..... .




The marketplace , when it comes to musical instruments, is very chaotic and getting more chaotic by the day. The only way forward it the production lays in the East, at least for the majority of the instruments. Production in the West will be limited to producing expensive instruments and ultimately it will be , if at all, assembling only.


Very much like the hi-fi business where mass production of low to medium-high quality products shifted from Europe to Japan and then to the rest of the orient. Only few makers survive in Europe and America but their production is very small and limited to extreme and exclusive luxurious items.


The automobile industry is also the same story. Most models produced in the east lack the lineage and cachet, yet they use fantasy names, image and marketing to try to propagate an image and to fit a market. How many of us drive a Nissan and dream a Ferrari?
 

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Artist endorsements have always been a lot more about image than they have about use. Clarinet players have seen this for over a hundred years, as first Selmer, then Buffet, and then Selmer have cycled through the "Leading performers" business.

(Heavy advertising and product placement is nothing new. In the Benny Goodman Story, there is a plug for Selmer, this in a movie that dates back to the late 1940's or so. It's during the scene where young Benny is arriving at his teacher's studio just as another student is leaving, and the other student observes "New clarinet, huh?". Benny replies "Yeah." Then the other student says "Selmer, right?")

When my son was playing semi-pro hockey (Junior A, for those who know the scheme), he was shocked to see how many players in the professional leagues were endorsing one firm's products but actually using another's. The sticks were not the major offender (sticks are now sold by a player's "favorite configuration" rather than by the old numbered "lay" system), but gloves, skates and other equipment was commonly advertised as being used by so and so, but not actually used by them.)

And, just as in hockey a good player can work wonders with minimal investment in equipment, so too can a good player with an adequate horn turn out some wonderful music. After all, 90% if not more of what goes into making music occurs north of the mouthpiece and reed.

As for what it's worth, you have to consider that a good product, no matter how good it is, is relatively worthless unless someone knows that you have it for sale. There are few people who are going to invest the kind of time and treasure in tooling and production facilities to make something as complicated as a saxophone without some assurance that they will receive a return on that investment (ROI, in finance wonk speak).

That's part of the reason for the "stenciling" which goes way back to the 1800's. Folks like Colonel Conn put together the equipment (the most expensive part back then) and the skilled labor (dirt cheap, even when unionized) and then pushed them to produce enough product to pay their nut plus a little left over besides.

When a musical instrument sales operation looked to add an item to their line, they might (if big enough) go into the manufacturing end of things for that product. But, as we see many times in clarinet and saxophone production, it's a snap to purchase a lot or two of instruments from (insert name of foreign production musical instruments on the low end here), stamp a different name on it, run up an ad or two, and go to town.

There will always be "boutique" makers who will (for all intents and purposes) hand make their horns. They are always small concerns, and they have to charge an arm and a leg for the handmade quality. If they increase the demand for their product, ultimately that hand made quality will suffer. An inescapable dynamic of the market place.
 

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I've got no problem with advertisements, no one forces me to read them after all, and for any brand to prosper they need to get their name out there. Look at B&S, great product, zero advertising, not in business anymore.

My big problem with Mauriat is this "Paris" thing, its blatantly false and is trying to make it look like its something its not. That in itself is a big red stop light to me. Now they have a reasonable reputation and following, I think its time to drop the pretence. I went to the website, and could find no mention of where they are really from anywhere.

Do the Mauriat horns have "Taiwan" on them anywhere? The mysterious "dealer only" pricing thing is irritating too. I don't care if its a sax or a car, if I cant get a ball park idea of what you want for it from my initial contact with your business, I'm going to move on quickly.

It could well be that Mauriat have much more exacting tollerences in putting the horn together than say Jupiter or Antigua Winds, I've never seen one in the flesh. The taiwanese Antigua Winds horns Ive had, although great horns on a limited budget, obviously do not have the absolute attention to detail in terms of fit and finish that a true pro horn has, there is occasional slack in the mechanisms, not big things, but things that could be fixed at a cost in terms of making it fit perfect. Maybe Mauriat do that, justifying the cost, maybe the miriad finishes available are costly to do, maybe the quality of the pads, screws and springs is top notch, adding a lot of cost over the same horn made with cheaper components. Maybe they reject a lot of parts for quality issues or cosmetic details, adding to the cost, who know? But as far as Im concerned, if it says "Paris" on the bell, and the company has nothing to do with Paris in reality, it casts doubt over the integrity and quality of the whole operation, so I'll look elsewhere.
 

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OK, saying P.Mauriat-Paris could be considered misleading..... it would make somebody " feel" that they are buying an European product of comparable traditiono and cachet to Selmer or Keilwerth or whatever, while it is.....made in Taiwan.

But also other, Illustruos or not, brands ( up until now this is limited to the cheaper models) pretend their horns are made somewhere else that they are really made.

I seriously doubt that the P. Mauriat horns customer is unaware of the whereabouts of the production lines.

Ultimately one votes with his wallet, if you don't like it, don't buy it.
 

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Well, can't deny a manufacturer from promoting their products as well as they can and I think Mauriat is doing an exceptional job at it. Like my Canuck friend, it's the blatant BS behind the French connection they are laying claim to. But you know what? People get what they deserve in many cases. It's going to take stronger laws before any of this will end.

It is possible. Truth-in-advertising laws are much more stringent here and normally one doesn't get (at least for long) the kind of exaggerated claims that one sees in the US. I don't know if the Paris hype with Mauriats is advertised here or not, but I do know that some advertisements are toned down from what's allowed in the US and there are even some products that are not allowed to advertise, or even be sold, because the claims are too arbitrary.

As an example, I was amused when reading the US advertisement for the (can't remember the exact name) sax bag which reduced sound. I believe the US ads said it reduced the sound 90% and then I noticed advertisement at the Frankfurt Musik Messe that advertised it at around 60%.

I think Mauriat's feet should be held to the fire with this BS but it takes a consumership involved enough to force legislators to make tougher laws and my guess is that neither the public has the will to push stronger advertising control laws nor do the legislators the integrity to stand up to the system which lines their campaign coffers.
 

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well they say they use French Brass....whatever that is! :D
 

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WOW! You completely read my mind. A nice looking sax made in taiwan that is a heavy knock off of a mark VI. I have talked to proffessor that HATES! Mauriats. I think really any sax can sound Great, but really, $5000 for a sax? Why? I would rather buy two broken mark VI's and fix them up than buy a mauriat. Really, they are a modern conn and mark VI knock off! I know professionals who (they play great,(not Mauriat)), but would rather play LaVoix than mauriat. Mauriat to me is almost like a B&S except, better looks, and with a lot more zeroes. Why would you buy a sax for Looks? I mean, it is sometimes a good reason on vintage saxes but really $5000 for a tenor to $7500? I could buy an unrestored Porsche for that much!
 

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They have great advertising, and are very persuasive, but I think they really are liars! They make it seem like they go to all this trouble to make them, but they are normal saxes with an eye candy design. They are not even made in FRANCE! Why would it be called Mauriat Paris if they are made in TAIWAN!?! French brass. Oh you dug normal brass and minerals out of the ground in France woopdee doo!
 

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Mauriats cost $5000.00 - $7500.00? Wow! Since when?

(BTW, since when were B&S's bad horns?)
 

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I wasn't implying that B&S was bad, I was simply saying that when I went to go look at them and play them the were $5000 +. By the way, I love B&S.

Saxalley. com sells Mauriat.
 

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ChuBerry47 said:
I think really any sax can sound Great, but really, $5000 for a sax?
Keilwerth, Selmer, More Esoteric Yanagisawas....all in that price range or more...

Even broken mk VIs are silly money now.

It really matters not whether it costs $400 or $4000 to make, its what someone thinks it is worth to them to buy that will determine the price, not simply the cost to make plus 20%

I have never seen a Mauriat in the flesh, but presumably those buying them think they are worth the asking price and have shopped around and tried other brands. The company is still in business, so they seem to be making money doing what they are doing.

As for being better looking than a B&S...its a matter of opinion. personally I think the Mauriats are a bit tarty, fake looking and overdone, wheres the B&S has a classy understated elegance. At least B&S were not churning out Selmer clones, they had there own idea about mechanisms and adjustment etc, and I think their earthtone matte finish predates most others?

Does anyone know if all the different variants of the mauriats really hit the target sound that the marketing machine would have them aimed at, or is it a case of the "emperors new clothes" where people hear what they think they want to hear, but they are all rather similar? Surely if it was that easy to come up with different target sounds, wouldnt Yamaha, and Yanagisawa and the other big pro players be pushing hard on different target markets too, after all , why search high and low for that particular vintage horn sound when you can buy it new with modern ergos and no wear and tear? If Mauriat do have a handle on recreating the tones of the past, then perhaps they do offer something that cant be got elsewhere, which is always good for a brand.
 

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PM seems to want to be everything to everyone. looks like they have a model to fit everyone wants (except ppls budget).

matter of fact, i keep having flashes in the back of my mind "Swing 55JX .... Swing 55JX"
 

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gary said:
... nor do the legislators (have) the integrity to stand up the system which lines their campaign coffers.
He hit it dead center! Give the man a kewpie doll. :!:
 

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I'm not so sure any of them are. You gotta move your product right? Most sax ads are distinct only within the community. I mean, you don't see a Mauriat ad while walking down Market street in San Francisco.
 

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calisax said:
you don't see a Mauriat ad while walking down Market street in San Francisco.
And that may be the only thing you don't see.
 
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