[BrianMitchellBrody]

I am seeking a low Bb baritone that is good quality and less than $1400

My choices seem to be (Late) Conn 12M and 1969-70 Buescher 400.

I am curious as to what other choices I may have besides a Chinese low A.

I would prefer a Keilwerth stencil or German Kohlert but it needs to be in decent working condition

From my research the Conn and Buescher seem to have intonation issues, is this others experience?

Thanks, BB

 

[Dr G]

If you find a Buescher TrueTone in decent fettle, I can vouch for them. In the low Bb category, I rank them above Selmer Mk VI and Conn 12M (based on a head-to-head comparison, corroborated by several bari players). I like their voice especially for the context of small ensembles with a bari solo voice.

 

[BrianMitchellBrody]

If you find a Buescher TrueTone in decent fettle, I can vouch for them. In the low Bb category, I rank them above Selmer Mk VI and Conn 12M (based on a head-to-head comparison, corroborated by several bari players). I like their voice especially for the context of small ensembles with a bari solo voice.

Thanks. Those are definitely great sounding bari's

 

[Pete Thomas]

From my research the Conn and Buescher seem to have intonation issues, is this others experience?

Not had intonation issues with 12M unless it's a mismatched mouthpiece such as a Lawton. Solid horn, great ergos and intonation.

 

[BrianMitchellBrody]

Not had intonation issues with 12M unless it's a mismatched mouthpiece such as a Lawton. Solid horn, great ergos and intonation.

Ive heard large chamber mouthpieces work better on these old bari's and/or extending the neck a bit if using a modern piece

 

[Pete Thomas]

Ive heard large chamber mouthpieces work better on these old bari's and/or extending the neck a bit if using a modern piece

Extending the neck usually works on only a limited part of the range - so not the ideal soloution.

The problem with just thinking "large chamber" is that if you want a punchy R&B or more modern jazz sound, then the old pickle barrels though appropriate for tuning are not the best for tone and dynamics. Fine if you are into old time or classical...

 

[BrianMitchellBrody]

I had the same thought. I want a punchy modern sound for sure. I just can't afford a newer baritone and I like the weight of the Bb baris

 

[Mike T]

Then get yourself a Conn 12M and one of Pete's PPT mouthpieces. It works for me, anyway…

 

[cymru97]

Don't overlook King Zephyrs. Those and the 12M get my nod for roaring baris. 12M ergos are bit better, but the King is an under-appreciated beast.

I think the intonation thing is overblown, but I tend towards more traditional pieces like Links, Meyers, and Brilharts. I also really like this old King mouthpiece I've got that has somewhat of a step baffle in it. Perhaps some modern pieces do have some compatibility issues if they get too aggressive, but there are lots of pieces that do work without trouble.

 

[B Flat]

12M or The Martin Comm III.
Intonation is up to you.
I’ve read on here how some can’t blow a Yamaha or Yanagisawa in tune.
If that’s the case then your not going to find a Baritone that is workable.

 

[bandmommy]

I've got a pre-buy out Buescher 400. (It still has ALL of the original snap in spuds) No intonation issues with 'modern' mouthpieces.
My son in law and I regularly use a Yamaha 4C, Rousseau 5R, and Metalite 7 on it.
BIG sound from that old beast.

 

[LateNiteSax]

Agree, absolute monster sound from these animals. But the ergos are a complete disaster. Virtually unplayable for me without massive mods...

Update: actually its the 400 bari I've tried. Perhaps an older pre-400 model was better. But the 1950s Buescher 400 I played (owned by the late and incredible Aaron Sachs BTW) was as I described.

If you find a Buescher TrueTone in decent fettle, I can vouch for them. In the low Bb category, I rank them above Selmer Mk VI and Conn 12M (based on a head-to-head comparison, corroborated by several bari players). I like their voice especially for the context of small ensembles with a bari solo voice.

 

[vbluesman]

I have a Bb Keilwerth from the Herb Couf era. It has a modern ergonomic feel, intonation is very good and it's a tone monster.
King Super 20 baritones are very good too, the ergos are much better than the Zephyr.

 

[vbluesman]

I have a Bb Keilwerth from the Herb Couf era. It has a modern ergonomic feel, intonation is very good and it's a tone monster.
King Super 20 baritones are very good too, the ergos are much better than the Zephyr.

 

[High Fly]

I have a 400 (mid period) and a 12M (50s) and a late VI.

The 400 has the 'nicest' tonal character; woody, rich, warm- would be great in small jazz or classical ensemble. If mic'd works as well for RnB. Note that the bell flare / bore is large!...may be hard to get into some cases

The 12M is open throated, and more up front. The VI is a great balance

Beware the left pinky table of the 400. Its a bad design but can be optimized to make it work better, but thats about it.

I would never say the 12M as good ergos!....it feels kind of primitive to me. of course it could be the specific horn but it reminds me of my 10M in that same way.

They're all great in their own ways! From some but limited experience, they all sound better than Asian counterparts

 

[cymru97]

I would never say the 12M as good ergos!....it feels kind of primitive to me. of course it could be the specific horn but it reminds me of my 10M in that same way.

This goes to show how subjective ergonomics can be. I was JUST blowing my 12M and early VI back to back and the Conn is much more comfortable to me. The VI is just so compact, it's outstanding for someone coming from an alto or tenor with modern keywork.

On the other hand, I ditched a 10M for a NW because I couldn't adjust to the layout! ?

 

[KeithL]

This goes to show how subjective ergonomics can be. I was JUST blowing my 12M and early VI back to back and the Conn is much more comfortable to me. The VI is just so compact, it's outstanding for someone coming from an alto or tenor with modern keywork.

On the other hand, I ditched a 10M for a NW because I couldn't adjust to the layout! ��

Yeah - you really need to try the horns for yourself considering what kind of player you are and what you're planning to use them for. For some folks the ergos on vintage horns, especially bari, are a problem for others not so much. For some the intonation is a challenge for others not so much and in some cases a Low A is a must or maybe appearance is an issue. Having someone who's a professional or near pro-level player with big hands who's been playing vintage horns for 40 years and plays bari as their main horn tell a hobbyist used to playing alto/tenor with modern keywork and scale looking for a bari as an occasional double not to worry about the ergos or intonation is presumptuous.

 

[BrianMitchellBrody]

I have a Bb Keilwerth from the Herb Couf era. It has a modern ergonomic feel, intonation is very good and it's a tone monster.
King Super 20 baritones are very good too, the ergos are much better than the Zephyr.

I agree Couf can blow the doors down played one in HS

I'm trying to do bari on the cheap but not too cheap. I want a Bb because of its weight but I can see how people have trouble adjusting from modern horns.

 

[IBeOmega]

A $1400 budget is going to be rather tough. You might get a horn for that but it will probably need work.

Of those two you mentioned, the Buescher will probably be a better horn. I'm assuming they're both '60s-era? Bueschers from that time period weren't as well set up when new as the pre-buyout horns had been, but when properly overhauled they are still decent instruments. Conns just plain went downhill after about 1960, and by the '70s they were just making crap.
Ergonomics of vintage American horns are strange compared to modern horns, but you get used to it. I personally find Buescher's ergos much more comfortable than Conn, but my True Tone requires fairly large hands and/or long fingers.
Intonation isn't as good as a modern horn, but you're welcome to spend 2.5x your budget to correct that. IME Bueschers are a little better than Conns, with the 400 being in the 'not too bad' category. Use a mouthpiece that agrees with them and either will be fine - a Link will work on either as a starting point.

There's also preference. Vintage American baris have way more guts and depth of tone than most modern horns. I personally love this about them, but a lot of people, particularly Selmer and Yanagisawa fans, seem to have a hard time controlling them at least at first. If you're used to German horns IME you'll probably be able to mostly handle one.
There are also the tone and feel differences between the options; I reliably like Buescher saxes, I liked the one King bari I tried, I had a blast on the Martin I tried although I wouldn't want to own one, and I have yet to play a Conn I like. None of that means anything toward your taste, but if you can try the instruments first it is 100% worth doing so.

 

[B Flat]

$1400 might be rough but I’d imagine a late 12M would be doable in decent playing shape.
One of those Mexiconns that everyone likes to poo on would be doable.