[silver-sax]

I had approx. 20 Weltklang baritones and can say that exist 8 types of such saxophones.
Baritones were made in 1960-1994. In total made approximately 9 thousand saxophones (last known s/n 8814, from Peter Wilmanns). For 30-35 years only 9000!

All saxophones are outwardly similar, but some details are not interchangeable. For example, 2-3 years ago I repaired one baritone and searched for one key. I have found such key, but could not put it (the sizes were a bit others).

I have never seen Bb Weltklang baritones. Also want to say that exist lacquered horns with nickel keywork.

Below I tried briefly to classify these baritones, using series numbers. Horns types 1-5 and 6R have rolled tone holes. Possibly that simultaneously made two types of baritones. Authenticity of information - 95%:

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WELTKLANG

from s/n 1 to s/n 600 (it is known early - 155, late - 502)
1. Big Globus in centre, polish silver (nickel/chrome?) plate,
keygards - crosses, rolled tone holes
(photo s/n 155; http://www.saxer.org/instrumente_neu.php)

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from 601 to 1300 (it is known early - 627, late - 1217)
2. Big Globus in centre, matt silver plate,
keygards - crosses, rolled tone holes
(photo s/n 62*; Ebay.de)

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from 1001 to 2100 (it is known early - 1066, late - 2092)
3. Big Globus in centre, polish silver plate,
keygards -crosses rolled tone holes
(photo s/n 172*)

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from 2001 to 3000 (it is known early - 2066, late - 2882)
4. Big Globus in centre; from this model keygards
on the low keys - classic Weltklang, rolled tone holes.
(photo s/n 263*)

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from 2801 to 4100 (it is known early - 2867, late - 4017)
5. Small Globus right, rolled tone holes
(photo s/n 368*)

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from 4101 to 5000 (it is known early - 4299, late - 5000)
6R. Inscription "WELTKLANG" vertically,
rolled tone holes
(photos s/n 450* and s/n 5000 (anniversary model with engraving on the keygards and low keys; 1972 year)

Bari with wrong engraving "WTLTKLANG" s/n 43** (thank you AhCheung)

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from 5001 to 6400 (it is known early - 5200, late - 6350)
6. Inscription "WELTKLANG" vertically,
usual tone holes (cannot found good photo)
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from 6101 to 7300 (it is known early - 6163, late - 7237)
7. Inscription "WELTKLANG, Markneukirchen - Klingenthal"
horizontally on the top right on the bell.
(photo s/n 616*) (from http://www.internationalwoodwind.com/inventoryold.html)

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from 7101 to 9000 (it is known early - 7182, late - 8814)
8. "Solist" model, inscription "WELTKLANG Solist
Markneukirchen - Klingenthal"
horizontally on the top right on the bell
(photo s/n 768*; 1983 year)

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Exist also Weltklang bari stensils: Berg Larsen, Sonora, Luxor,B&S, etc.(?)

 

[hgrail]

Great pics! But how did they play?

What were the differences between them other than engraving and keyguard/appearance?

Intonation?
Unique keys - or keys not on horn?
Etc?

Thanks

 

[AhCheung]

Great pics! But how did they play?

What were the differences between them other than engraving and keyguard/appearance?

That's a good question!
Silversax hinted in another thread that they are very similar apart from engraving.

Intonation?
Unique keys - or keys not on horn?
Etc?

Thanks

Having blown or played three of these, one with the globe and two of the "6R" model above (with S/N in the 4300 and 4600) , I found intonation to be VG throughout. The only drawbacks for me were that the G# plateau is not articulated, that the F# trill has no keyguard, and that the thumbhook is very small and ill-placed for my hands (I had it resoldered at an angle and am using a "thumb-ez" for clarinet!). A couple palm key risers for LH and RH and I have a horn with fast, modern ergos, relatively light to carry, and good projection.

Unique key? an additional low A (apart from the LH thumb key), part of the LH pinkie plateau (that I never use because I have small hands), as can be seen on the pics above.
Keys not on horn... hi F#.
Also, Silversax could tell us whether he has ever seen a low Bb Weltklang bari.

Thank you so much Silversax, for opening this thread with all this info.
Note that the last model had "Weltklang" registered! (is that after the German reunification in 1990?)

 

[AhCheung]

About the Werner Roth...
I've noticed in your other thread (in the FS section) from other pics that it has "diamond shaped" posts, much like a Keilwerth (whereas the Weltklangs have conical posts).
What makes you think, Silversax, that it was B&S made, like the Weltklangs?

 

[Jazz House]

These saxes play WONDERFULLY

I had the chance to play one of these once. One thing i've never seen on modern saxes is that the low a key is under the low Bb.

This sax has 2 low A keys, under low Bb and LH thumbrest.


They have a HUGE mega tone and sound awesome.

 

[silver-sax]

WELTKLANG STENCILS:

Luxor (lacquered with nickel keywork; Ebay.de):

B&S silver bari (Ebay.de):

Sonora (lacquered; from http://www.tittmann.de/Sax2Hand/SonoraBari.html)

Exist also little similar Weltklang design sax - Werner Roth "Sinfonia" baritone

s/n 273*

and without number (top - 273*, bottom - without number). Baritones have different engraving.

 

[madav]

Good job Silver Sax - I have a Silver rolled tone holes-Vertical 'Weltklang' - no World symbol, with s/n 45**. It comes with the 2 low A options and a non-articulated lefthand cluster

 

[AhCheung]

FYI these horns' serial Nos are also stamped underneath the LH pinkie cluster.

 

[silver-sax]

I some times updated the information.
Thank you Peter Wilmanns from Germany.

 

[silver-sax]

Three days ago compared Weltklang Solist and Werner Roth (mouthpiece Selmer Soloist C**). Can say that Weltklang has good jazz sound, Werner Roth has classic sound. Werner Roth also has little larger weight.

 

[milandro]

these are pics of a B&S Condor, click several times on the thumbnails until fully expanded

 

[jthole]

I played that Condor today. Better than the Weltklang bari I played a couple of months ago, if my memory serves me correctly. But from the way it feels, it clearly is a member of the same family.

Intonation (from my ear, not with a tuner) was quite decent, but it had the typical right hand 2nd register sharpness that many older baris seem to have.

 

[milandro]

Nice to have seen you Johan, always welcome!

 

[Helen]

Intonation (from my ear, not with a tuner) was quite decent, but it had the typical right hand 2nd register sharpness that many older baris seem to have.

That is something that carried over to their newer models as well. I have a Medusa bari, and as soon as I hit D2, it wants to go sharp. I always have to make an effort to lip my notes down. This is very different to my Mark VI, and very confusing to my embouchure, since the Medusa is my backup horn, and doesn't get as much playing time. You'd think after years of saxophone design & refinement, VMI would have figured out how to get their intonation under better control. :idea1:

I should mention that I very much like my horn, and I wouldn't trade it or sell it. However, it does have this quirk that I have to work around.

 

[milandro]

doesn't everything or don't we all?

 

[silver-sax]

Weltklang grandson - modern "stencil" B&S bari:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Baritonsaxophon-B-S-/190459561397?pt=Blasinstrumente&hash=item2c584645b5

 

[milandro]

very cheap indeed, who knows what will happen until the end of the auction

 

[madav]

well one difference I can see with the B&S baris are the one piece bell, and a brace for the neck loop, and lack of the low A on the pinkty table. Otherwise they look very very similar.

 

[silver-sax]

I change "borders" for serial numbers for type 7.
5900 - 7300 instead 6101 to 7300 (now I see on Ebay baritone of such type with s/n 5980)

And I think that correctly for convenience and clearness of classification to change numbering and to remove type with index "R" (6R) (now type 6 instead 6R, type 7 instead of 6, 8 instead 7, 9 instead 8).
Each type has been made in quantity of 1000-1400 items (except for 1 and 9 types).

1 type (s/n 1- 600)
Big Globus in centre, polish silver (nickel/chrome?) plate,
keygards - crosses, rolled tone holes
2 type (s/n 601-1300)
Big Globus in centre, matt silver plate,
keygards - crosses, rolled tone holes
3 type (s/n 1001-2100)
Big Globus in centre, polish silver plate,
keygards -crosses rolled tone holes
4 type (s/n 2001-3000)
Big Globus in centre; from this model keygards
on the low keys - "classic" Weltklang (one long keygard for 3 tone holes), rolled tone holes.
5 type (s/n 2801-4100)
Small Globus right, rolled tone holes
6 type (s/n 4101-5000)
Inscription "WELTKLANG" vertically, rolled tone holes
7 type (s/n 5001-6400)
Inscription "WELTKLANG" vertically, not rolled tone holes
8 type (s/n 5900-7300)
Inscription "WELTKLANG, Markneukirchen - Klingenthal"
horizontally on the top right on the bell.
9 type (s/n 7101-9000)
"Solist" model, inscription "WELTKLANG Solist
Markneukirchen - Klingenthal" horizontally on the top right on the bell

 

[soybean]

Silver-sax, thank you for the update.