[Grumps]

It came up in a thread on why saxophones were keyed in Bb and Eb, as they were designed for use in military bands. It was also pointed out that they were also to be produced in C and F for use in orchestras; but as we all know, this didn't pan out so well. So, unless military music can be thought of as classical, can an argument be made that these horns which survive today (the Bb and Eb models) were not made for classical music? Now I do know that you can play any style of music on practically anything, but that's not my point. Considering that orchestras never really included these horns in their make-up as well... has the saxophone's place in classical music been largely self-imposed?

 

[KenK]

I think it's maybe the reverse: it's not that saxophones didn't end up in orchestras because they were built for band, it's that they ended up in bands because orchestras were resistant to including them. Any instrument that isn't part of the normal makeup of an orchestra would tend to not get "classical" music composed for it.

 

[gary]

Blame it on the composers.

 

[Mark5047]

Blame it on the composers.

How so? If the pieces were already being composed in F and C for other instruments it would be an easy adaptation, no?

 

[vivace1]

If I'm not mistaken, the very first compositions including the saxophone were for orchestra. The military thing came a few years later.

(Yet another moment that I wish the Horwood book was affordable enough to have a personal copy).

 

[Saxplayer67]

I think the military band thing and concert thing happened almost simultaneously - I'll check out The Devil's Horn and The Cambridge Companion to the Saxophone, etc.

The saxophone should have a standard place in an orchestra, as should any item which can make music - kazoo, musical saw, the spoons, ocarinas, recorders (they were supplanted by clarinets I believe), didgeridoo, you name it, it has a value, musical establishment be damned!

 

[A Greene]

My personal opinion - having read much about Mr. Sax and his instrument - I've come to 2 conclusions as to the orchestra issue:

1) Sax was NOT a nice guy. He made tons of enemies in both the composer circles as well as other instrument makers. He ended up in poverty defending his invention (including the saxophone) in court. This was thought to be a plan devised by the other manufacturers.

2) Beethoven had established "THE ORCHESTRA" by the 1830's - Tuba JUST made the cut-off. Unfortunately the saxophone came at least a decade latter.

Much of my info comes from Dr. Hemke's Dissertation - The Early History of the Saxophone as well as other less formal material.

I can say the it WAS NOT invented to play jazz. But are instruments REALLY invented to only play certain music?

 

[gary]

How so? If the pieces were already being composed in F and C for other instruments it would be an easy adaptation, no?

As the original question is worded, I'm assuming we're not talking about transcriptions. And nobody's going to use a sax in an orchestral setting by any composer written before the birth of the sax. So that leaves music written since the birth of the sax and if there's not much in the "classical" repertoire then IMO one needs to ask the composers "why". Can't play something that's not written, wot?

 

[Rackety Sax]

Here's what Wikipedia says on the subject:

Sax's intent, which was plainly stated in his writings, was to invent an entirely new instrument which could provide bands and orchestras with a bass to the woodwind and brass sections, capable of more refined performance than the ophicleide, but with enough power to be used outdoors. In short, Sax intended to harness the finesse of a woodwind with the power of a brass instrument. However, as Sax often offended rival instrument manufacturers, the resulting prejudice toward the man and his instruments led to the saxophone not being used in orchestral groups. For a long time, it was relegated to military bands, despite Sax's great friendship with the influential Parisian composer Hector Berlioz.

If this is correct, it was not so much the type of music but rather the new instrument's capabilities that drove its invention.

 

[hakukani]

Orchestras are not the only vehicle for 'classical' music. Most twentieth century music, and most music that contains saxophone are written for chamber music.

According to R. Murray Schaeffer in his book 'Soundscapes', the orchestra was an analogue of the factory---a product of the industrial revolution.

Look how the orchestra is structured:

conductor -big boss man
concermaster-overseer
principals-foremen
section players-assembly line workers

 

[gary]

...and we know (he says as a conductor), carrying analogies further, that an orchestra is just the opposite of a steer, which has the horns in front and the ******* in the back. :twisted:

 

[Kevin]

I am pretty certain that bands, then as now, play classical music. It does not have to be an orchestra to be classical.

I have also not read anywhere that Sax was particularly not nice. Understanding the way in which the industry was operated at that time should lead someone to observe that Sax was an outsider and he came into an industry that was already set in its ways and his presence threatened them. He was in court defending himself against frivolous lawsuits. It was others not being nice to him.

 

[saxman_aja]

I don't think an insincere question really deserves a sincere response.

 

[jzer21]

If not classical, what else would a 19th century, French instrument be made for?

 

[Mark5047]

I don't think an insincere question really deserves a sincere response.

??? Are you referring to the original question? Seems a pretty fair question to me

 

[rs1sensen]

I think that we like to think of sax as a visionary, but although he certainly brought about something new, that doesn't make him someone who had a dream of the destiny of the saxophone. I think he simply saw opportunities for a new instrument, and devised it. He was above all, a businessman.

At the same time, I've never read that he was not very nice. In fact, for quite some time he was very well liked, by everyone except his competitors. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if he was a bit weird, he had a lot of capacity for odd injuries and mistakes (ate too many paint chips as a child, I suppose)...

 

[Fidelio]

If by "classical music" we mean early to mid nineteenth-century European art music, then no, I don't think the saxophone really has a place. If, on the other hand, we mean art music as a whole, I think the saxophone absolutely has a place. Like a lot of art music that was written after 1900 or so, the solo repertoire for the saxophone often challenges audiences and discourages people who like to tap their feet and hum along, but that doesn't mean that our repertoire isn't "classical."

I'm sure a lot of us have put together recitals of delightful, tonal music and had people come up to us afterward saying things like "I always thought classical sax music was all squawks and squeaks." If anything, it's the fault of Sax for designing such a versatile-sounding instrument.

 

[qwerty]

Yes. The Saxophone was made for classical music.

 

[BlueLight]

If Saxophone wasn't made for classical music in the mid 1800's of Europe then what else could it have been made for??

 

[Kevin]

The saxophone is not a French instrument