[Arundo Donax]

After reading this somewhat old article,

https://bandestration.com/2014/12/07/saxophones-in-f-and-c/

I wonder if the C and F family was more of a so-called long shot for success.

 

[John Kotches]

No. C and F were intended as symphonic instruments. Bb and Eb were considered for military band. Guess which took off?

Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk

 

[SaxTon]

The first sax Adolph Sax made (or at least presented in public) was a bass sax in C at an exhibition in Brussels in 1841!
I believe in S. Dakota there is a music instrument museum I must visit that has one of his C Basses on display.

 

[musekatcher]

I'd love to have an F alto.

 

[Arundo Donax]

No. C and F were intended as symphonic instruments. ...

Well, that's what the article I referenced questions, since there were relatively few made and those that were made seemed to be experimental rather than fully developed instruments.

By 1864, the saxes did not appear in Sax's catalog and even in the 1850's it appears his interest in F and C was fading.

 

[motteatoj]

C’s were ALL the rage in the 20s and due to their low cost today folks are picking them up left and right (I now have 2).
If someone were clever they would start making a new C mel, I bet it would sell!

 

[adamk]

C's were ALL the rage in the 20s and due to their low cost today folks are picking them up left and right (I now have 2).
If someone were clever they would start making a new C mel, I bet it would sell!

Aquilasax tried.

 

[vries1]

The first sax Adolph Sax made (or at least presented in public) was a bass sax in C at an exhibition in Brussels in 1841!
I believe in S. Dakota there is a music instrument museum I must visit that has one of his C Basses on display.

For your remote viewing pleasure:

http://collections.nmmusd.org/Saxophone/AdolpheSax/7457bass/7457SaxBass.html
https://digital.deutsches-museum.de/item/40107/

Both these instruments are Bb ("B" means Bb in German).

 

[turf3]

It was my understanding that the original original conception was of a family in whatever keys might be desired; then following that was the original conception of two families, one in F/C and one in Eb/Bb. Whether or not Sax himself expected the Eb/Bb horns to be "military band" and F/C to be "orchestral" I've not read clearly. All I've seen appears to be speculation many decades after the fact.

As to the "transposing" nature of the Sax fingering designations, I haven't read anything that made clear why he chose to call the same fingering "C" on all the horns. There weren't that many "family" instruments in either the military band or orchestra of the time, I think. I think the valved brass all came along later (is this right?) If I understand correctly, tubas come in a variety of sizes but they always refer to a particular sounding pitch as "C" and use different fingerings to achieve that note. I'm not sure what was the practice on the Eb clarinet (if used in those days) or Db piccolo or the different trumpets of the time. And in the stringed instruments of course, players mostly stay on one instrument their whole careers and they are not treated as "transposing" instruments of a family. I have no idea about things like the ophicleide or serpent or cornett that the saxophone was originally expected to replace.

It looks like the whole concept of a "transposing family" of instruments may have been Sax's other great innovation?

 

[zapatista]

Well, that's what the article I referenced questions, since there were relatively few made and those that were made seemed to be experimental rather than fully developed instruments.

By 1864, the saxes did not appear in Sax's catalog and even in the 1850's it appears his interest in F and C was fading.

That article, while very interesting, comes up with a not wholly supported (though possibly correct) conclusion. Just because the author didn't find any or much (or chose not to include) information to support the C and F intentions of Mr. Sax doesn't mean it is not there. Specifically: "The idea of an "orchestral" set is a myth perpetuated by orchestration manuals written during the earliest stages of saxophone development." Seems like a pretty big stretch to me.

 

[saxtek]

As far as I know, none of the original prototype Adolphe Sax saxophones have survived. I'm talking about the original ophicleide-shaped bass saxes made before 1850, not the normally (sort of) configured basses like the one at the American Music Museum. The first saxophone was almost certainly a bass in C or Bb. Most scholarly articles have said it was in C, but recently Howe has made a creditable argument that it was in Bb. Bass saxes in Adolphe Sax's earliest catalogs were in C.

When saxophones were entirely handmade in the 1800s, it was not so difficult to make a sax in an unusual key, nor was it much more expensive to do so. Adolphe Sax certainly had the knowledge to determine the necessary measurements. Also, very early original Sax instruments DO exist, including C sopranos, F altos, and C tenors.

Sax probably manufactured horns to meet the demand. There was certainly a demand for military instruments in Bb and Eb, because Sax was an official supplier to the army. Since the saxophone was an entirely new instrument, there was very little (or nothing perhaps) of any consequence written for saxes in symphony orchestras.

One thing that is often ignored is the music composed and published for saxophone when the instrument was first produced. Much of this music was published by Adolphe Sax himself. As far as I know ALL of the saxophone music commissioned and published by Adolphe Sax was for saxes in Bb and Eb, and it was classical music.

Berlioz mentions the saxophones in C and F in his treatise on instrumentation, and that may have led to more interest focused on saxes in C and F, both at that time and also later. However, the treatise was written so early in the saxophone's development (1844) that it would have been impossible for Berlioz to predict the future implementation of saxophones in the orchestra. Interestingly, Berlioz did NOT use saxophones in his compositions for symphony orchestra, although he was an important supporter of Adolphe Sax and wrote for smaller ensembles that used Sax's instruments.

I'm still hoping that somewhere, perhaps in a French or Belgian attic, an original Adolphe Sax prototype bass saxophone turns up, in good shape, whether it is in C or Bb.

 

[zapatista]

C's were ALL the rage in the 20s and due to their low cost today folks are picking them up left and right (I now have 2).
If someone were clever they would start making a new C mel, I bet it would sell!

https://www.sax.co.uk/saxophones-shop-by-size-c-melody-saxophones.irc

 

[Lambros]

Consider too, that the clarinet also followed a similar trajectory but had the advantage of being almost a century older than the saxophone in its development. Mozart composed many pieces for soprano clarinet and basset horn (keyed in F) and of course Adolphe Sax invented the bass clarinet as well. My understanding is that Sax debuted the baritone to orchestral circles before the alto.

As far as I know, none of the original prototype Adolphe Sax saxophones have survived. I'm talking about the original ophicleide-shaped bass saxes made before 1850, not the normally (sort of) configured basses like the one at the American Music Museum. The first saxophone was almost certainly a bass in C or Bb. Most scholarly articles have said it was in C, but recently Howe has made a creditable argument that it was in Bb. Bass saxes in Adolphe Sax's earliest catalogs were in C.

When saxophones were entirely handmade in the 1800s, it was not so difficult to make a sax in an unusual key, nor was it much more expensive to do so. Adolphe Sax certainly had the knowledge to determine the necessary measurements. Also, very early original Sax instruments DO exist, including C sopranos, F altos, and C tenors.

Sax probably manufactured horns to meet the demand. There was certainly a demand for military instruments in Bb and Eb, because Sax was an official supplier to the army. Since the saxophone was an entirely new instrument, there was very little (or nothing perhaps) of any consequence written for saxes in symphony orchestras.

One thing that is often ignored is the music composed and published for saxophone when the instrument was first produced. Much of this music was published by Adolphe Sax himself. As far as I know ALL of the saxophone music commissioned and published by Adolphe Sax was for saxes in Bb and Eb, and it was classical music.

Berlioz mentions the saxophones in C and F in his treatise on instrumentation, and that may have led to more interest focused on saxes in C and F, both at that time and also later. However, the treatise was written so early in the saxophone's development (1844) that it would have been impossible for Berlioz to predict the future implementation of saxophones in the orchestra. Interestingly, Berlioz did NOT use saxophones in his compositions for symphony orchestra, although he was an important supporter of Adolphe Sax and wrote for smaller ensembles that used Sax's instruments.

I'm still hoping that somewhere, perhaps in a French or Belgian attic, an original Adolphe Sax prototype bass saxophone turns up, in good shape, whether it is in C or Bb.

 

[JayeLID]

C's were ALL the rage in the 20s and due to their low cost today folks are picking them up left and right (I now have 2).
If someone were clever they would start making a new C mel, I bet it would sell!

It wouldn't, likely.....UNLESS...unless...the horn body was re-proportioned/re-designed so it sounded like a sax and not a sorta lifeless, tubby thing. To do that, the body and likely neck would need to be re-proportioned, to bring the life and zing back to it, sonically.

Looking at the Aquila and the Sakusu...it seems (just visually) they did not do that, instead relying on the traditional C proportions of the body.

I also think the fade of the C was related to technology of in-home entertainment at the time. In an era where gatherings and play-alongs were a more typical evening of family/friends entertainment, it was a good thing. But as society moved away from that, bands didn't have a whole lotta use for a horn voiced between Eb and Bb, and it's timid sonic qualities (which some argue was intended...although I have my doubts there) weren't particularly attractive in a combo or large band setting....

 

[Grumps]

C's were ALL the rage in the 20s and due to their low cost today folks are picking them up left and right (I now have 2).
If someone were clever they would start making a new C mel, I bet it would sell!

Quit wasting your money. And saxophones have it bad enough, we don't need anymore white elephants.

The C and F horns lost their luster pretty quickly as set forth above. The C melody only came back through a marketing scheme to allow less skilled musicians to play along with their aunt on piano in the parlor. Thing is, folks wanted to sound like their favorites at the time, on alto and tenor. Not like their cousin in the parlor.

 

[LostConn]

It looks like the whole concept of a "transposing family" of instruments may have been Sax's other great innovation?

No, the clarinet family already existed. Sax was very familiar with it -- he made bass clarinet design improvements even before he invented the saxophone. The use of a variety of transposing keys also was already well-established. E.g., Mozart's Clarinet Concerto is for clarinet in A (originally basset clarinet in A), whereas Weber's clarinet concertos are for the Bb clarinet.

 

[turf3]

No, the clarinet family already existed. Sax was very familiar with it -- he made bass clarinet design improvements even before he invented the saxophone. The use of a variety of transposing keys also was already well-established. E.g., Mozart's Clarinet Concerto is for clarinet in A (originally basset clarinet in A), whereas Weber's clarinet concertos are for the Bb clarinet.

So, in Sax's time, clarinettists referred to the same fingering as "C" whether it was on Eb, Bb, or what have you?

If so, certainly since Sax (I believe) started out as a clarinettist and his first big commercial success was an improved bass clarinet, he would have been already predisposed to "Transposing Families".

 

[Lambros]

basset clarinet is a G horn; basset horn is in F. Clarinets in A are standard horns in classical music along with the more ubiquitous Bb instrument.

QUOTE=LostConn;4109930]No, the clarinet family already existed. Sax was very familiar with it -- he made bass clarinet design improvements even before he invented the saxophone. The use of a variety of transposing keys also was already well-established. E.g., Mozart's Clarinet Concerto is for clarinet in A (originally basset clarinet in A), whereas Weber's clarinet concertos are for the Bb clarinet.[/QUOTE]

 

[motteatoj]

It wouldn't, likely.....UNLESS...unless...the horn body was re-proportioned/re-designed so it sounded like a sax and not a sorta lifeless, tubby thing. To do that, the body and likely neck would need to be re-proportioned, to bring the life and zing back to it, sonically.

Looking at the Aquila and the Sakusu...it seems (just visually) they did not do that, instead relying on the traditional C proportions of the body.

I also think the fade of the C was related to technology of in-home entertainment at the time. In an era where gatherings and play-alongs were a more typical evening of family/friends entertainment, it was a good thing. But as society moved away from that, bands didn't have a whole lotta use for a horn voiced between Eb and Bb, and it's timid sonic qualities (which some argue was intended...although I have my doubts there) weren't particularly attractive in a combo or large band setting....

Hmmm...a C Mel that ROARS....that is an interesting concept, I wonder about application though, if it really roared and projected, would rock players look to it to make playing easier?

 

[Alain Gen]

It was my understanding that the original original conception was of a family in whatever keys might be desired; then following that was the original conception of two families, one in F/C and one in Eb/Bb. Whether or not Sax himself expected the Eb/Bb horns to be "military band" and F/C to be "orchestral" I've not read clearly. All I've seen appears to be speculation many decades after the fact.

As to the "transposing" nature of the Sax fingering designations, I haven't read anything that made clear why he chose to call the same fingering "C" on all the horns. There weren't that many "family" instruments in either the military band or orchestra of the time, I think. I think the valved brass all came along later (is this right?) If I understand correctly, tubas come in a variety of sizes but they always refer to a particular sounding pitch as "C" and use different fingerings to achieve that note. I'm not sure what was the practice on the Eb clarinet (if used in those days) or Db piccolo or the different trumpets of the time. And in the stringed instruments of course, players mostly stay on one instrument their whole careers and they are not treated as "transposing" instruments of a family. I have no idea about things like the ophicleide or serpent or cornett that the saxophone was originally expected to replace.

It looks like the whole concept of a "transposing family" of instruments may have been Sax's other great innovation?

As far as I know, the saxhorn family predates the saxophone family.