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Discussion Starter #1
Four years ago I purchased an $8,000.00 retail horn from my local M&A store. The horn was being sold as "new". I didn't check the serial number. Six months later, the horn developed a metallurgical defect. Turned out the horn was four years old and had no warranty despite the fact that when I bought it I was told it did have a warranty. The company told the importer to let me pick out a new horn. I did.
Visiting the local store eight months later I found a $9,000.00 retail horn listed as new. Checked the serial number, it was four years old. The price was right, I bought it.
Six months ago I purchased another $8,000.00 retail alto. Checked the serial number myself, about a year old.
Recently I looked at another horn at the M&A store that was being sold as "new". The M&A employee looked up the serial number and informed me it was "about a year old". I called the importer directly and discovered that the horn was seven years old. The company gave me the sales history.
After four experiences with M&A here is what I know: Since M&A bought out American Music and other stores, they have been gradually moving NOS to retail as "new". BE FORWARNED! Check the serial number on your own.
I tried locating the local M&A district manager. I know who he is but there is no contact info for him. Contacted M&A corporate, they pushed me back to the local store. They were of no help.
I've spent close to $20K with M&A in the last three years. I'm done with them.
 

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You should file reports with your local police agency as well as the BBB. You might consider contacting a consumer advocacy group too. I will do some research on ways for you to get your money back and nail these crooks to the wall.
 

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I am not sure about musical instruments, but in most sales, if an item has never been sold at the retail level it is considered "new" regardless of the date of manufacture. A lot of companies will list items as "NOS" if it has been sitting in inventory for more than a year. On the flip side, most product warranties begin with the first retail sale date, not manufacturing date.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Didn't spend $8K. The point is that no matter how much you spend, the goods are not being represented correctly.
 

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As long as a sax has stayed in its original condition and in a merchant's inventory since its acquisition, it's "new".

No merchant is going to set an arbitrary age limit on a sax and then, after the new horn has reached said age, designate it "used" - and drop the price as well. That's just crazy. I see no fraud here, intended or otherwise.

If it hasn't been "pre-owned" (hate that term), or otherwise abused as, say a floor or demo horn, it's "new".
 

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I hated American Music because they wouldn't honor the upgrade they promised me, despite my horn being in great condition. They told me thay they no longer accepted the model I had at the time even though it was promised any time within 5 years of purchase. My school uses Music and Arts and the tech is a good guy, but I always buy from WWBW or right here on the forums. (Despite the 15% educational discount at M&A).
 

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Would you buy a seven year old car being sold as "new" at retail price instead of a new one are retail? If so, I'll sell you some beach front property in AZ. There are various state and Federal UCC related laws that govern first sale. In my last horn scenario, the particular horn model has had several changes incorporated in the manufacturing. At the very least, this is deceptive advertising. What is new? Courts decide such issues. I bought one horn as new, the definition of new including a warranty. There was no warranty. If I am offered a seven year old horn as "new" and the manufacturer states new includes a warranty but there is none, how is this "new"? Seems like fraud to me. After seven years, how do I know if a horn is "new"?
I have no problem buying a NOS horn if I know it is NOS. Why not be upfront?
With all four horns, none had been sold at retail but none included a warranty as both manufacturers involved considered the horns used and/or NOS when the original dealer purchased the horn and then that dealer was sold to M&A.
 

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Forum Contributor 2015, SOTW Better late than neve
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Both M&A and WWBW are owned by Guitar Center. Like Gary said, how long something sits on shelf has nothing do with it's warrantee. The first retail owner's warrantee starts at the time of purchase.
 

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Would you buy a seven year old car being sold as "new" at retail price instead of a new one are retail?
You apparently did, 4 times. But no fraud here.
 

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You apparently did, 4 times. But no fraud here.
Burn. But true. No I wouldn't buy NOS for full current retail. Are they doing something illegal? Probably not. Shady? A little. Is it your duty to perform due diligence and make sure you're not getting ripped off? Yes, in everything you buy unfortunately the burden is on the buyer to do their research.
 

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What was the original "metallurgical defect"?

What is it that you like about these horns - enough to keep buying them? What brands are they?
 

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Four years ago I purchased an $8,000.00 retail horn from my local M&A store. The horn was being sold as "new". I didn't check the serial number. Six months later, the horn developed a metallurgical defect. Turned out the horn was four years old and had no warranty despite the fact that when I bought it I was told it did have a warranty. The company told the importer to let me pick out a new horn. I did.
Visiting the local store eight months later I found a $9,000.00 retail horn listed as new. Checked the serial number, it was four years old. The price was right, I bought it.
Six months ago I purchased another $8,000.00 retail alto. Checked the serial number myself, about a year old.
Recently I looked at another horn at the M&A store that was being sold as "new". The M&A employee looked up the serial number and informed me it was "about a year old". I called the importer directly and discovered that the horn was seven years old. The company gave me the sales history.
After four experiences with M&A here is what I know: Since M&A bought out American Music and other stores, they have been gradually moving NOS to retail as "new". BE FORWARNED! Check the serial number on your own.
I tried locating the local M&A district manager. I know who he is but there is no contact info for him. Contacted M&A corporate, they pushed me back to the local store. They were of no help.
I've spent close to $20K with M&A in the last three years. I'm done with them.
In the bold, twice, you say you bought horns retail for $8k two times.

I also would like to know, what kind of horns are these???
 

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I'd be fine with a MkVI sold as NOS...
 

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Saxes and other musical instruments are not cars. They remain "new" until sold. Saxes I don't really care about but a wood instrument (such as a guitar) I'd prefer to have a new " old stock" instrument if I were buying unused merchandise.
 

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Just to let you know. Most shops don't move High Ticket horns that often. They probably bought the horn 4 years prior to you purchasing it, and in that time frame the horns warranty had expired. It's the #1 reason most shops don't stock high end horns and would request you pay upfront to order it.

I've seen it in my shop, where we've purchased a horn for stock and it's taken 4+ years for a buyer to come along for the horn.
 

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Saxes and other musical instruments are not cars. They remain "new" until sold. Saxes I don't really care about but a wood instrument ... I'd prefer to have a new " old stock" instrument if I were buying unused merchandise.
Even then, wouldn't be such a bad deal if that old wooden POS they took down off the wall to sell you said Stradivarius or Guarnerius on it, what!? :mrgreen:
 
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