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Distinguished SOTW Technician
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This really is a bad business and admin are right to keep the thread open.
Without resorting to conjecture or character assassination Lance Burton does have a BIG problem--and pride, for fear of loosing status or 'face' is a big part of his problem.
It seems he can't or wont take responsibility for his own actions,in other words it's always someone else's fault whether it be the customer, or circumstances. Lance is a clever man and a skilled engineer, no doubt about that, I have been inspired to undertake more 'adventurous' mods by some of his work but, this does not excuse his reticence and endless 'deflection tactics' towards customers especially if money has been paid in advance.
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician
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Now for a bit of conjecture... This seems to me to be largely about mis-managed expectations and communication. It could have been handled better by all directly involved, but seems, at least on the surface to be on the mend.
That's a bit more than conjecture; and in my opinion, given the stated concerns (both past and present) and responses thereto, absolute fantasy.
 

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Afternoon all. A relevant point has been made. Well and not so well. That is; that only the parties involved should be contributing. I agree to an extent. May i ask...would a period of compassion be acceptable? Sure, easy for me to say. I dont have a horn missing. Lance, my post of last night remains unchanged. For Enviroguy, Sebastian.....for yourself man!!...a
 

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Talk is cheap. From this point on Lance's actions will speak far louder than any words he writes in this thread. I learned a long time ago that the first rule of holes is: "When you find yourself in one---stop digging."

I also find it hard to accept the point of view of some participants in this thread that since my transaction didn't go bad, then there is no problem with this individual's business practices. To me that is like saying Dave Guardala didn't rip me off personally, so I think he is an ok businessman.

Threads such as this one are important in my opinion so that all of us can learn from the negative experiences of others. The same is true on the other side of the coin when members pay accolades to individuals and businesses that have given them good service.
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2007-
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I would like to report that Lance emailed me last night stating that he wants to finish my sax and that he will send pictures today. This would be great if true.

I will keep everyone informed.
 

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I am glad this thread is here. I had considered sending a horn to Lance and now never will. At this point, even if he fixes the mess he has made with everyone involved in this thread, he has proven to be a poor businessman and for the most part a liar. At a community like this where transactions are protected only by trust I believe it is really important that information like this be kept public for everyone's benefit. Obviously not my call, but I do question Lance's status as a distinguished member at this point...it could be misleading to people who haven't read this thread and might misinterpret it as a reflection of his character.

I'll be in Seattle in June and if people are still missing horns I'd be more than happy to retrieve them and ship them back to people. I would have no trouble getting police to help.
 

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Discombobulated SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 201
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I gotta say that launching the operation shítstorm after having sold (give away for free/whatever deal you made with the new owner) the horn to another person is a very unethical thing to do IMHO. ...
Conn-Hunter doesn't spell out the exact timeline of events, but it appears he had already been taken for a long ride when he sold the horn, and he presumably sold the horn at a great loss given that he'd been told Lance lost parts from it and given the great difficulty C-H was having getting the horn back and the uncertainty over whether Lance even still has the horn or will ever return it.

So Conn-Hunter was seriously cheated but because he may not be getting further cheated it is unethical for him to expose/complain?
 

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Not really. banks do it all the time, selling mortgages and debt that might be "good" or "bad". As long as the situation is fully disclosed, the price agreed upon will reflect the perception of risk of the buyer, and all is fine. So If C-H disclosed the situation (as it seems he did) all is fair and ethical.

I have been watching this thread as a potential customer, and I am glad it was started. For the most part it has been civilized, and everyone is asking Lance to take action to solve the problems and make it right.
At first I thought it wouldn't help, since he was the only one not getting in the debate, but now it seems that he is doing the right thing: Working on those horns instead of typing here, so that his actions will speak.
I hope that this turns out to be true.
Thanks for the administrators for providing this space for fair warning, since endorsements are never an issue.
 

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Distinguished SOTW Technician
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Good post Juan--I think he's "bitten off more than he can chew" and yes, he never admits to being wrong, or accepts another point of view.
 

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Discombobulated SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 201
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Well the presumption is, given Conn-Hunter's openness here about selling/transferring the horn, that he disclosed the situation to the transferee and any money he got reflected the possibility that the guy may never see the horn. This is at least strongly suggested by C-H's statement that he's out $2500 in this transaction. Really, this is just getting too silly...
 

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Regardless of the outcome,his reputation is shot as far as I'm concerned. It only takes one instance to undo years of good work.
 

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Not really. banks do it all the time, selling mortgages and debt that might be "good" or "bad". As long as the situation is fully disclosed, the price agreed upon will reflect the perception of risk of the buyer, and all is fine. So If C-H disclosed the situation (as it seems he did) all is fair and ethical.
Agreed.
There’s a lot of risk in this type of transaction, but I suspect that risk was reflected in the price paid by the third party—probably at a loss to Conn-hunter—which is another valid point that I believe he is making. In contract parlance, that’s referred to as “consequential damages”—in this case, damages incurred by failure of a party to perform under the original agreement.
 

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Assuming arguendo that his way of making money has been taken from him and that he has lost his motivation to wake up every morning with hope that his hard work will get him out of the shades (all of which I find highly unlikely), what was the real cause of this fate? Was it the spotlight that has been shined on him here? Or was it the conduct that was spotlighted? I would argue that it was the latter, and only one person can fairly be blamed for that.

Would it have been more ethical to keep the spotlight off and possibly let countless others have to go through the same ordeal that these customers are now having to go through?
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015
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I would like to report that Lance emailed me last night stating that he wants to finish my sax and that he will send pictures today. This would be great if true.

I will keep everyone informed.
Thats great to hear. Hope it works out this time.
 

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Thank you for your concerns fellow sotw members. ConnHunter is a relative of mine and I would keep the horn in the family. Lance now has the opportunity to shine and make good on his promises. We all hope he does. I would hate to have to get ugly.:angry4:
 

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I have a bari with Lance for extensive modification and have no reason to believe I won't get it back. Is it taking a long time? Sure, but I expected that when I sent if off. Hopefully Lance will be able to start cranking these out when he has all the necessary support fabrication equipment ready to use.
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician
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Hopefully Lance will be able to start cranking these out when he has all the necessary support fabrication equipment ready to use.
Hopefully folks will have good enough sense not to ship off their horns along with payment up front to a vendor that does not have all the necessary support fabrication equipment ready to use; your optimism notwithstanding.
 
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