[thadnoland]

Lance, you are not charging enough for these modifications. That being said, you are still obligated to finish all of these nice peoples' saxophones in a timely fashion. There are millions of excuses to be invented. That being said I feel excuses are nothing but complete bull-****.

Finish the saxophones at the agreed-upon amount, return them to their rightful owners, and immediately increase your prices on all your products/services. You obviously need to. These are intense mods you are doing. People charge $1500 for an overhaul these days.

Do yourself a huge favor and tell the truth to these folks & send pictures of their instruments in their current state to them. Your reputation is on the line here, I think. I know you are far beyond capable.

- Thad

 

[FremontSax]

if it isn't bloody obvious.... No one else on SOW should entrust work to Martin Mods until Lance has cleaned up the work he has already entered into.

 

[CONN-hunter]

if it isn't bloody obvious.... No one else on SOW should entrust work to Martin Mods until Lance has cleaned up the work he has already entered into.

exactly, and not just that...

GIVE BACK the horns you toke completed and finished not missing parts.

And no matter if Lance is gonna charge 2,000 U$ for an overhaul/mod, he will never finish them on time, that for sure because that is not a matter of money but of reliability, organization and character all things we have been missing.

Now, I am taking my work time right now here in Africa to tell this. I have had some emergency cases this morning.

Come on Lance, stop being ridiculous. Stop drinking, start finishing horns.

you are finishing MPCs and small things to buy beer.

 

[Gary59]

Re: Martin Mods/Lance Burton.

Deja vu all over again?

Wow! All this sounds real familiar!

 

[paulio]

Re: Martin Mods/Lance Burton.

Frankly this thread stinks and probably was detined to go that way. It's natural to feel aggrieved when one is wronged but this borders on the worst of the pack mentailty that this forum and others can degenerate into. The court of public opinion can never be just and fair and this is exactly why. Just maybe this pack is tearing up a clearly talented guy who has tried to make a business out of his talent, just maybe he has overstretched his ability to manage and deliver, who knows but just maybe his life is in a bit of a mess at the moment.

 

[Rackety Sax]

Re: Martin Mods/Lance Burton.

Frankly this thread stinks and probably was detined to go that way. It's natural to feel aggrieved when one is wronged but this borders on the worst of the pack mentailty that this forum and others can degenerate into. The court of public opinion can never be just and fair and this is exactly why. Just maybe this pack is tearing up a clearly talented guy who has tried to make a business out of his talent, just maybe he has overstretched his ability to manage and deliver, who knows but just maybe his life is in a bit of a mess at the moment.

Maybe you didn't read Saxismyaxe's posts to the effect that Lance has been given every opportunity to make this right and has failed or refused to do so. If anything, the rest of the people whose horns are tied up need to join in the discussion so we can all get a better picture of the scope of the situation.

As to "lost" parts, that's inexcusable. What's he doing, running a saxophone repair Ponzi scheme by scavenging parts from newer projects to complete old and then waiting for fresh projects to come in to provide additional replacement parts?

As for the "experimental work" mumbo jumbo above, my head is left spinning.

 

[Graysax]

A friend of mine tells a good story with a moral...


You can build 100 bridges and never known as "Joe the Bridge Maker"

You can save 100 lives and never be known as "Joe the Hero"

But have intimate relations with one lousy goat..........


Now, that being said, I cannot give any testimony to anything regarding Lance's Business Practices. I know him as a friendly SOTW member who does similar work as I do.

I think most people have to realize that their reputation is a VALUABLE commodity. It doesn't take much to have it tarnished. The mud being slung could be correct or not, it will still do damage.

In business, I think it is impossible to make everybody happy all the time. I think you just always have to try your hardest so when mud does get slung, your previous track record can absorb some of the controversy. In this case an awful lot of mud got slung at once from different directions. That will not be ignored by the watching public, even if it was incorrect.

As a business equal, he has (had) to know that making deals and timelines that can not be kept would not be good for business. The customer is always right. The only way out of this for him is to make good on EVERY request from the SOTW members (amongst others) he is currently doing business with.

Sad part for me in all this is, I like Lance and what information and input he posts. I have found him an insightful addition to SOTW. I would hate to see him banished, however if what being said is true, I can understand fully.

My 2 cents
Charlie

 

[Bloo Dog]

Re: Martin Mods/Lance Burton.

Frankly this thread stinks and probably was detined to go that way. It's natural to feel aggrieved when one is wronged but this borders on the worst of the pack mentailty that this forum and others can degenerate into. The court of public opinion can never be just and fair and this is exactly why.

I agreed with your point until I read the entire thread and came to SAXISMYAXE's Comment:"No Jacques, it is not as simple as you would so cavalierly have it. This forum board was used to solicit business by Lance, and there is a laundry list of problems that have not been addressed or settled with many of our members."

As long as there is no libel committed, and as long as MartinMods' membership isn't revoked, thus making it impossible for him to defend himself, SOTW has a right to keep the thread active. The thread hasn't degenerated into a court of public opinion. I think that SOTW is exercising good judgment in keeping the thread open in the interest of the wronged members.

I think that the lawyers in the ranks of the membership would probably agree.

 

[CONN-hunter]

Concerning reputation...

I found Lance on eBay offering mods and wrote him. I also found out that he was a time in Germany as musician and could speak some German, that was nice.
Well, before I sent him my sax I talked to him many times telling him that I couldn't afford to send my sax when he were not able to send it me back in best shape.

He told me a that time that he couldn't also "damage his own image and name" since he depends on it to survive on the market.
I asked than an other SOTW member Walter Webb who sent his Magna alto to him. So I decided to send my tenor from Germany also.
Walter Webb has been waiting for his Magna longer than I did for my Conn Tenor and he was pretty upset. No idea if he got his Magna back. He told Lance to send the horn back , no matter the shape, even not finished... Lance refused this.
I also told Lance to send my Sax immediately, no matter the shape... he refused it too. This was kidnapping. Holding proprietary against the willing of owners.
This a silly sick practice. There is there something heavily wrong in this behaviour.

Well people, Lance was musician in Europe, than later worked with used electronic arrays selling them on eBay US. Everything is OK.

But I ask myself what is behind of this practice. Changing countries, businesses and addresses. From FL to Seattle. OK

Now, He gave me excuses for over a year and he is doing exactly was I asked him not to do as I agreed to send him my fancy CONN!!! Betraying.

He lost parts of my horn!!! Imagine! 3 or 4 cups and their mechanics.
Just have a look on my former horn...

I tell you I could weep and foam for anger due to the lost of this horn. Wondering if the new owner will recover it.
I gave it away because I didn't have the energy to fight for this any longer. I left Germany in Jan/11 and I am working in Africa for needies and orphans and they are all enjoying my Zephyr alto but I do miss my Tenor pretty much and still don't have replacement for that lost.

Anybody there still thinking Lance is innocent?

Back with the horns Lance. I know you're reading the postings.

 

[milandro]

perhaps this was posted somewhere else but intended for this thread............in any case it seems a fitting comment.........I find all this very disturbing to say the least...

I've learned over the years that someone can be super talented and a great craftsman but be awful with money I would not give someone like that money in advance. The problem is that they get the money, the money gets spent and then they need more money. So they have to drum up more business to pay the bills. That means they are working to get new business and getting the easiest things done when they can. The big projects get a backseat because they won't see any more money from them and they need money right now. They are trapped now. Work on the big projects but.......lose their car, their house, their wife,no food............trapped. They can have the best of intentions but if they are stuck in that corner they have very little options available. If I had a business like this I would never take money up front. Send me the sax.......you get it back when you pay me. I know myself to well.......I would spend the money and then be in a heap of trouble.

I'm not saying that this is indeed the situation here because I know nothing about it or the person involved but it seems like it could be. I hope this can all be resolved that's for sure.

 

[Nefertiti]

Whoops, where did I post it. I meant it for here.

 

[milandro]

Whoops, where did I post it. I meant it for here.

thought so....... :bluewink:

 

[Nefertiti]

I've learned over the years that someone can be super talented and a great craftsman but be awful with money I would not give someone like that money in advance. The problem is that they get the money, the money gets spent and then they need more money. So they have to drum up more business to pay the bills. That means they are working to get new business and getting the easiest things done when they can. The big projects get a backseat because they won't see any more money from them and they need money right now. They are trapped now. Work on the big projects but.......lose their car, their house, their wife,no food............trapped. They can have the best of intentions but if they are stuck in that corner they have very little options available. If I had a business like this I would never take money up front. Send me the sax.......you get it back when you pay me. I know myself to well.......I would spend the money and then be in a heap of trouble.

I'm not saying that this is indeed the situation here because I know nothing about it or the person involved but it seems like it could be. I hope this can all be resolved that's for sure.

 

[Rackety Sax]

A friend of mine tells a good story with a moral...

You can build 100 bridges and never known as "Joe the Bridge Maker"

You can save 100 lives and never be known as "Joe the Hero"

But have intimate relations with one lousy goat..........

Now, that being said, I cannot give any testimony to anything regarding Lance's Business Practices. I know him as a friendly SOTW member who does similar work as I do.

I think most people have to realize that their reputation is a VALUABLE commodity. It doesn't take much to have it tarnished. The mud being slung could be correct or not, it will still do damage.

In business, I think it is impossible to make everybody happy all the time. I think you just always have to try your hardest so when mud does get slung, your previous track record can absorb some of the controversy. In this case an awful lot of mud got slung at once from different directions. That will not be ignored by the watching public, even if it was incorrect.

As a business equal, he has (had) to know that making deals and timelines that can not be kept would not be good for business. The customer is always right. The only way out of this for him is to make good on EVERY request from the SOTW members (amongst others) he is currently doing business with.

Sad part for me in all this is, I like Lance and what information and input he posts. I have found him an insightful addition to SOTW. I would hate to see him banished, however if what being said is true, I can understand fully.

My 2 cents
Charlie

That's a nice, even-handed post Charlie, extending Lance the benefit of the doubt and all that, which I understand is probably motivated in part by your being in the same business and not wanting to appear to be piling on a "competitor." If this were one person complaining, that would certainly be in order. But when someone of Saxismyaxe's standing says that there are multiple forum victims who, despite the patience of Job, are getting no resolution of their many and longstanding grievances - including, in some cases, merely getting their horns returned in whatever condition they may currently be in - the time for evenhandedness is over. We should be coming together as a group and trying to help these people get whatever measure of resolution of their situations might be possible. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Graysax]

I just want to make sure my intent was clear in my last post.

I could personally care less if Lance is right or wrong in this case. It's not my business because I have no horns sitting with him. If I did I am sure I would be singing a different tune.

Please don't confuse this as a defense for Lance.

I was trying to make a polite, calming message with a general observation of how easily tarnished a reputation is. With that a plea for Lance to step up and do the right thing.

I just wanted to add that I always respected his input on SOTW. Having this happen doesn't make his added information less accurate in terms of saxophone modification - It just scares customers away.

 

[Benny]

Come on Lance, stop being ridiculous. Stop drinking, start finishing horns.

you are finishing MPCs and small things to buy beer.

So do you have proof that he's got a drinking problem?
Otherwise, thats an extemely low thing to say.

 

[Enviroguy]

I think Todd is being just a little bit unjust here. He approved the experimental processes all along, which were totally at my expense. Of course if you start "experimenting", then the time considerations are out the window, though, now he would have us believe that this was a routine repad and I was totally negligent in pulling all the parts off the shelf. Frankly, I'm a little offended.

Lance,

You left out the fact that I was letting you do what you thought best in order to finish the horn. And for the last year, I have been offering to reduce the scope of work just to get the sax finished. I have been kind and understanding all the way. There is nothing unjust about that. And I am sorry you are offended. But you need to consider the feelings of all the people here that don't have their saxophones because you have not finished them as promised.

If you were in the cold, why didn't you tell? I sent you everything you asked for plus a little extra. And I would have given you what more I could afford to help with heat. But that's not the issue here. The issue is that you will not complete our saxophones. And I suspect you no longer have them.

It's time to come clean, my friend. The truth will set you free. If you still have all these missing saxes, take some new photos and show them. And then give us some dates when you promise they will be finished. I suspect each of us will be very accommodating as far as the scope of work goes in order to get our horns back. You can still be the good guy here. This episodes needs be nothing more than an intervention of sorts. But you have to step up and you have to step up now.

 

[Graysax]

That's a nice, even-handed post Charlie, extending Lance the benefit of the doubt and all that, which I understand is probably motivated in part by your being in the same business and not wanting to appear to be piling on a "competitor."

Thanks, and as far as my motivation .... I know how easy it can be to get swamped with work. If his situation was that he got so swamped that he cant make deadlines, he hit my worst fear. Communication is KEY! 15 years teaching High School has taught me that.

When a sax repair goes past deadlines for me - I loose sleep. But I also refuse to let it go out unless I feel it is playing at 100%. I try to contact my customers when that happens - or at the least when they contact me I try to respond within a couple days. I also schedule my work to avoid such issues..

But this is not about me.

 

[Swampcabbage]

I've noticed a lot of people talking about how nice this person seems here. And I am sure this is true. I would also like to remind folks that most con artists, scammers, and grifters come across as the nicest and most knowledgeable people we may have ever met. And it's even easier to come off that way if you're hiding behind a computer.

Now, this is just food for thought. People thought Ted Bundy was a great guy and Madoff too.

It's one thing to go over a few weeks on a deadline and provide excellent reasons for it (especially one you set yourself). It's another thing to go over by months and then say that it's not your fault because the work is hard and you don't charge more.

Then find a new job.

I also believe that it is considered theft if you take something in for repair and then if it takes too long and you insist on it being returned (even though you paid for it) and they refuse to.

There is another lesson here. I will never pay for a job before it is complete. I know too many upstanding practitioners that work this way to do anything else. Let's put it this way. If I don't pay for the job when it's finished, THEY HAVE MY HORN for collateral. (And if they did the job they said they did, it should be worth a lot more than the job costs).

Sorry, I just cannot trust anyone who insists on payment up front to do service work. I do that with my car too.

My other interest in this is that I know a great many players in the Seattle area (lived there for almost 30 years) and I am concerned this could happen to any one of them. So I will be interested if this actually pans out or is something that requires more red flags.

 

[milandro]

I think that one could and indeed should praise the unquestionable contribution given to this forum and in general to the saxophone world by MartinMods , that is one thing, it has its undeniable value and nobody, here and in this instance, questions the value of Mr. Lance Burton as thinker, inventor and technician .

Unquestionably, a professional, any professional, who is hired by a customer to carry out a certain task undergoes certain obligations, entering a contract with his customers who rightly assume that the professional will be delivering good work in a timely fashion within an agreed scheme and for the price that they both agreed upon at the time that the two parties entered the contract.


If the professional who has been commissioned fails to live up to his obligation he might be a good technician but he is certainly a poor business man but if the technician has even collected advanced payment and fails to deliver the agreed repair we are already talking of a fraudulent situation.


Even poor commercial acumen can be made up by goodwill and readiness to make up for mistakes. Anybody can be making mistakes in good faith but if a professional starts making silly excuses then a customer will be right to think that there might have been no good faith to start with.

We are talking of valuable items entrusted to a technician and which have being damaged or are missing parts. Items which are requested back from their lawful owners in the state of disrepair or partial repair that they might be and even so these are failing to be returned! Saxophones which are being held for longer than one or two years without any reasonable excuse! This is way past being bad professional practice!


Making excuses of the type that we've read here is not only a sign of bad and negligent commercial practice (which could be made up from a willingness to serve the best interest of the customer returning the items, repaying the money taken for work that wasn't done and paying for damages for the parts that are missing ) but obviously if the people who are damaged start considering pressing charges it means that the affaire has dangerously entered the possibility of some serious legal repercussions and it has left the realm of simple bad administration and entered the malpractice or even, dare I say, the fraud realm.

The most prized possessions of any man are his word , honour and reputation, if one fails to stand by his word one could rightly loose the other two.