[Janis]

Hello,
I`m stuck in visalization question.
When we play we visualise things(scales, chords etc.) - it help us learn faster.
Till now I was visualize scales and chords on saxophone( finger combinations). But then I found out that I don`t ''see'' intervals good enought this way - for exammple on piano I can play much easier ''by ear'' than on sax. And on sax with visualization on piano(keyboard), too.
Third way how I can visualize is ''see'' scales on treble clef :space1: (this method suggest Jerry Bergonzi, Aebersold) and others.

questions :
1) Can I change my visualization aproach?
2) Wich way is better?
3) Should I visualise on treble clef becouse this is more famous( visualize on piano keybord could be sticky.)
4) How you visualise ( and what) and how knowingly it is.

p.s my english is a mess. Sorry about that.

 

[kcp]

Hi Janis and welcome to the forum

I find your question very interesting. Yet I guess that there is no easy answer for it, since visualisation calls for a number of different cognitive abilities together. Mind you, I'm no expert in that field but I do know a couple of things. Among other, visualisation calls for visual-perceptive abilities in a "linear" thinking mode. But "seeing/visualizing" isn't all, one must interpret or process the information that is seen/visualized and that's the working memory that does that. But before processing, one must be able to make associations with the symbolic language and what it stands for. This is another ability. There probably are more abilities implied but like I said, I'm not an expert.

This said, of course practice makes things better, it is said. It is true, but one must keep in ind that everyone is different. We each have our own set of strenghts and weaknesses. Nobody developps the same abilities equally and so,it would be unfair to compare yourself with others. To be fair, you must determine what you're good at and find a learning approach that fits your needs, that uses your strenghts, not your weaknesses.

Now on to your questions...

1) Can I change my visualization aproach?
That depends, for the reasons that I wrote above. Yet, it sounds to me like you are trying to tackle too many things at once. Just give yourself the time to assimilate before you make any drastic changes.

2) Wich way is better?
There is no better way. The best way is the one that fits you.

3) Should I visualise on treble clef becouse this is more famous( visualize on piano keybord could be sticky.)

I can't answer that. I'm pretty sure that there are people who perform succesfully by visualizing both ways and some equally successful that use a combination of both.

4) How you visualise ( and what) and how knowingly it is.
Tricky question... I have a selective visual attention deficit. Simply put, selective visual attention is the ability to select or isolate an element of a visual perception in order to finish the processing of the information. In other words, I can visualize but not the fine details. I can only see the big picture. That means that if I visualize a keyboard, I see some white stuff and black stuff but I can't see the cracks between the keys,it's all blurr. But I can approximate and help myself with my ears and with logic - If I visualize music on a treble clef, I can see the dots but not the lines on the staff and other details and again it's all blurr. But again, I can estimate and use my ears and logic. Through practice and repetition I learn to recognize patterns, sentences by ear in somekind of a logic way... or at least,it makes sense to me.

How knowingly it is? It took me a while to figure-it out. Over the years I began to notice that some things didn't work for me dispite how hard I tried. So I began to ask myself questions and seek different alternatives.

 

[Janis]

Thanks, nice reply, it helped me a lot.


.. ( but still many questions)

 

[johnnysax]

Last time I was there, Aebersold was recommending the keyboard approach. This makes the most sense to me. He could sing improvised solos while pointing to the notes on a keyboard diagram.

 

[Rowka]

I'm pretty messed up myself. When I'm figuring something out by ear or if I'm improvising I "see" the notes on the bass guitar (string and fret) then I have to determine what note it is (I know the notes of the fret board. Takes a fraction of a second to do, but I still have to do it i.e. if I'm on a D and I want an interval of a 6th, I instinctively know where to move, then that is, oh, a B), THEN I have to transpose it up a 2nd or down a min 3rd (if I'm on a tenor or an alto) by "seeing" that shift on the fretboard and playing THAT note on the sax.

Bass is my native music language.

It's like trying to learn to speak Spanish but still thinking in English.

 

[Janis]

I'm pretty messed up myself. When I'm figuring something out by ear or if I'm improvising I "see" the notes on the bass guitar (string and fret) then I have to determine what note it is (I know the notes of the fret board. Takes a fraction of a second to do, but I still have to do it i.e. if I'm on a D and I want an interval of a 6th, I instinctively know where to move, then that is, oh, a B), THEN I have to transpose it up a 2nd or down a min 3rd (if I'm on a tenor or an alto) by "seeing" that shift on the fretboard and playing THAT note on the sax.

Bass is my native music language.

It's like trying to learn to speak Spanish but still thinking in English.

Yes, if you have perfect pich it (transposing) could be a problem. Can`t help becouse I haven`t that problem
If visualizing on guitar works, thats not a problem.