[perina14]

This sort of thing comes up on Ebay every now and then, very often described as a prototype. Looks fairly rustic to me. Is there any possible it is real?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-HEN...310859?hash=item33d6658a4b:g:Zw4AAOSwRFdZtExu

 

[TrueTone]

Not sure what that is, but it's definitely not a pre model 22 Selmer. Look at the key guards and what side the bell keys are on, and the G# cluster.
Maybe some random horn someone stamped that on?

 

[Alain Gen]

Almost certain it"s not a Selmer. And obviously it's not a model 22!
Very "unselmerish" traits:
1. the shape of Eb/C
2. the shape of the palm keys
3. the mechanism for the bell keys (not of the "balanced" variety)
4. the shape of the LH pinky table
5. the key guards.
The picture #2 (of the Selmer logo) could be from an other horn (we can not see it on the other pictures of the bell...).
If the seller doesn't cheat and the Selmer logo is really on the horn and legit, it could be a case where Selmer has a stencil built for them.

 

[perina14]

My feeling is that this is a copy. By the look of the keywork, Eastern European?

 

[perina14]

I found this interesting link. Selmer apparently did stencils early in the piece. This difference being I suppose is that this one does look like a Selmer Model 22. The Selmer logo though is quite a bit different than what became usual.

http://www.saxpics.com/?v=mod&modID=6

 

[JayeLID]

Listing was just removed....

 

[TrueTone]

Listing was just removed....

Still works for me, weird...
They've definitely been told this isn't a pre-model 22 and haven't updated the description though, which is a bit worrying.

 

[JazzManCan]

Seems like someone's just taken some regular old horn and somehow stamped the Selmer logo onto it. Then again, maybe it really is some incredibly rare prototype!

 

[JayeLID]

Still works for me, weird...
They've definitely been told this isn't a pre-model 22 and haven't updated the description though, which is a bit worrying.

Odd maybe it was my browser....or an Eflay hiccup.

I ain't gonna do it myself, but it's possible to deduce if this may be a real Selmer:

1) take a guess of its era (I will say mid-late mid 30's -late 40's)

2) Cross reference with any Selmer models made between, say '32-'48, obviously ignoring/staying away from the change to modern keywork models.

3) Look at details such as the ferrule bands, keyguard feet, post shape, F#-to-G#/Bis armature, octave mechanism, and how the key spines meet the keycups as far as detail.

If there are some similarities that show up between the know Selmer model(s) and this horn - say, like, half of the above list of details match...then it may well have been made at Selmer.

If the similarities are almost nil, then....not.

Even with a prototype, a factory would NOT completely redesign and retool for every element of their horn....

 

[Alain Gen]

(...)
Even with a prototype, a factory would NOT completely redesign and retool for every element of their horn....

+1! Indeed, the similarities are completeley inexistant. The horn in the eBay ad could on the other hand be a Beaugnier (but I'm not 100% sure).

 

[warp x]

Enlarge the pic of the engraving and you'll see something is not right.

 

[Alain Gen]

Enlarge the pic of the engraving and you'll see something is not right.

OK, it's now obvious!

 

[dlrsax]

Well, the seller relisted it with an open bid. The current bid is less than a good mouthpiece, maybe the most curious can pick it up cheap!

 

[Juergen]

Hello,
when I look to the logo I would say that this is fake.
On the Mod. 22 they are not using the curent logo and afterwards the S from Selmer was "round"
BR
Juergen

 

[jgreiner]

Look at the "Selmer" stamp on the bell. Straight angles on the "S"? Nope.......not buying it! Furthermore, there's really nothing that even remotely screams Selmer to me about that horn. None of the keywork even comes close to any French made Selmer I've ever seen. Nice "repair" on the neck octave key too......yikes!

John

 

[Pete]

I found this interesting link. Selmer apparently did stencils early in the piece. This difference being I suppose is that this one does look like a Selmer Model 22. The Selmer logo though is quite a bit different than what became usual.

http://www.saxpics.com/?v=mod&modID=6

After you quote my old website, I appear.

First, I'm going to give some props to Mark over at saxquest.com/saxophone.org. He did more research on the pre-Modele 22 horns and was able to confirm that some of them were designed by Selmer. However, I can't find the *&%$!! page, ATM. You can search https://saxophone.org. I know it's there, someplace.

Second, I have the benefit of a bunch more years of research since I sold saxpics.com. I can now identify some of the stencils, like this one. That's an AE Sax-made horn. And Mark at saxophone.org had already mentioned that. The octave key mech was either copied from Dolnet or Dolnet copied from Sax. In either case, I've been able to break down all the AE Sax horns and they were in a few "series".

In any case, is this horn in the eBay ad a Selmer? I definitely don't think so. AE Sax? I've never seen an AE Sax instrument with right-hand bell keys. Couesnon? Other than the very interesting Système Dupaquier models, Couesnon didn't switch to right-hand-bell-keys until after 1935 or so. Also, remember that Selmer's first horn with right-side bell keys was the Balanced Action.

So. I have a strong opinion on what it isn't. I don't have a strong opinion on what it is. It has a bit of a look of an HN White King. The left hand G#/C#/B/Bb looks a little like Couesnon. No, I don't think the Selmer stamp is original, either. Selmer says on their website when they switched logos switched logos: 1926. IMO, the Selmer design looks like a slow evolution until the Balanced Action, which was a radical redesign. This ebay horn doesn't look much like a Modele 28 or New Largebore.

============

Pics, if you're having linky problems:

 

[perina14]

Thanks for the heads up Pete and for the use of your research. I agree with you on all points. And I think I'd pass on this one.

 

[Kritavi]

This is a "greater fool" sale, this horn is 0% Selmer.

 

[jgreiner]

This is a "greater fool" sale, this horn is 0% Selmer.

^THIS^