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I am sure that has been discussed before .......
I really wonder which musician can afford a $ 14.000 Selmer M6 Tenor????

Maybe a Investment Banker ? who wants to play at the weekend !

OK I dont think today a SBA tenor should cost $1500 like my first Selmer SBA in 1985!!
I think the problem is Some Sax DEALERs just say OK Now
A original Lac. SBA is $ 14.000 / a relac. BA is $7000 / early S20 tenor $6000.....
everybody sees that on their WEB Page and thinks ..these are the official prices now
If that goes on like that in 10 years only Investment Banker can afford to play/buy
Saxophones ! thats my opinion
 

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I am sure that has been discussed before .......
I really wonder which musician can afford a $ 14.000 Selmer M6 Tenor????

Maybe a Investment Banker ? who wants to play at the weekend !

OK I dont think today a SBA tenor should cost $1500 like my first Selmer SBA in 1985!!
I think the problem is Some Sax DEALERs just say OK Now
A original Lac. SBA is $ 14.000 / a relac. BA is $7000 / early S20 tenor $6000.....
everybody sees that on their WEB Page and thinks ..these are the official prices now
If that goes on like that in 10 years only Investment Banker can afford to play/buy
Saxophones ! thats my opinion
It isn't necessarily the "dealers." I scroll the bay every so often just to see what's offered. The majority of used horns for sale are by people who see a price or hear a rumor or are simply not aware of reality. For sure someone will pay 10 grand for a beat-up MkVI but I have to wonder if the buyer really knows what he's doing. Forget MkVI's though, and look at what sellers are asking for old Martins, Conns, Bueschers and other so-called "vintage, professional instruments." Its hard to blame the seller though. If a guy can sell his crappy Mendini or Cecilio for $500 it isn't his problem. Blame the buyer. And that after all's said and done, could be exactly where the supposed problem lies.

"Hey buyers, here's a 1956 Selmer MkVI alto, 50% lacquer remaining, needs to be rebuilt, not playable but in the closet for 50 years. Sacrifice for $12,000.00. Hurry, won't last!" I can hear the phone ringing already ;-)
 

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The problem lies with those that like to 'flip' horns and mouthpieces for profit. They buy as low as possible (often by sniping on Ebay) and then charge as high as possible in resale having done nothing but be a middle man. They are the one driving up prices, and those foolish enough to pay them top dollar. Why would anyone pay $15,000 for a sax when you have just eliminated any chance of having any equity in the thing?! Show me the 'proof' that an offset anything is better than a non-offset. Did the manufacturers say that? No. The investors, the sellers, the private dealers, THEY say that because if they can get us to believe it they can make more money. Only believe that which you've tried and proved for yourself. If you've tried an offset stamp, slant signature or Mark 6 and it WAS better than than anything else you've tried, great! That still doesn't mean they are ALL great and worth huge bucks. Be wary of the profiteer, he wants you to remain ignorant.
 

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the " problem" (if there is one......) is not about anybody re-selling a saxophone at a profit because this has always been going on but in the creation of a commercial myth around anything, so a saxophone, like any other object, if it is coveted by many, will become an expensive commodity.

The Internet and the auction sites have made this process a global one hence multiplying the number of people who could outbid others.

In any case the " craze" is limited to very few models namely the Selmer BA, SBA, Mark VI , Some Buescher, Conn, Kings reach special high prices but they really need to be the cream of the crop. By and large there are very many great vintage models which are affordable and easy to come by.

Where I live you can buy a Mark VI starting from 3500€ (which is still less than many new saxophones) and , if exceptionally good, one could spend 7-8000€ .



As fot the price of expensive music instruments. I invite anybody who thinks that saxophones are expensive to look at : Flutes, Bassoons, Oboes...........if you are not shocked by then , well, than, of course, go look at violins!
 

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A lot of it is the asking prices. A $15K tenor on ebay is just that, an asking price. Best to look at the sold section.
 

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it could be just a bubble who knows, when it bursts, someone will get get hurt. i suspect a lot of the audiences listening cant tell a difference. so, if playing professionally, why spend more than you recover. i guess there is the prestige of saying i have the best. there may also be sentimental reasons.
 

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When you play for someone, they're not gonna say "Wow, he's good, listen to that Mark VI!" They're not gonna know the difference. Even if you explain to them what a Mark VI is, they're still gonna walk away thinking it's just a saxophone. $12,000 is outrageous for a sax.

Still, I'd like to think my vintage sax would increase in value... And I agree with milandro, check out the prices of other woodwinds.
 

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My guess is the guy who pays 15K for a horn can survive the bursting bubble.

It goes without saying that a lot of great horns can be found in the 5K and below range.

If you are paying 15K you better not be under the delusion that it is an investment or a need...it is rather a "want". Wants cost us.
 

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I really wonder which musician can afford a $ 14.000 Selmer M6 Tenor????
You dont need a $85k car to drive down the freeway when $15k cars will do.
You dont NEED a $14k horn when you can get pro horns for $3k or less. (My 82Ztenor was $3.5k)

BTW: I paid $650 for my Selmer MarkVI alto in 1971
Considering what I made at the time, I'd have to pay about $10k in today's money.
That is more than I would have to pay for a vintage one now.
They were never cheap....
 

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in 50 years time the generation that is now buying those horns ( the people between 30 and 60 years of age) won't...........shall we say .......be buying them anymore and it is debatable whether there will be the same enthusiasm among those who will be replacing us . Enthusiasm for the great players (and their music) who played those instruments, players who contributed to build-up a myth which will live on if their heritage will still be appealing the generations to come. I rather doubt that!
 

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the " problem" (if there is one......) is not about anybody re-selling a saxophone at a profit because this has always been going on but in the creation of a commercial myth around anything, so a saxophone, like any other object, if it is coveted by many, will become an expensive commodity.

The Internet and the auction sites have made this process a global one hence multiplying the number of people who could outbid others.

In any case the " craze" is limited to very few models namely the Selmer BA, SBA, Mark VI , Some Buescher, Conn, Kings reach special high prices but they really need to be the cream of the crop. By and large there are very many great vintage models which are affordable and easy to come by.

Where I live you can buy a Mark VI starting from 3500€ (which is still less than many new saxophones) and , if exceptionally good, one could spend 7-8000€ .

As for the price of expensive music instruments. I invite anybody who thinks that saxophones are expensive to look at : Flutes, Bassoons, Oboes...........if you are not shocked by then , well, than, of course, go look at violins!
I agree 1000% !!!

From the title of the thread, I though you were gonna rant about how the price of GOOD, solid, vintage horns has nosedived into an abyss which apparently becomes increasingly fathomless with each add'l month that goes by.

...welcome to the new world economy....race to the bottom.....

THAT thread, I would have gladly chimed in on.

Because THIS is what is actually happening. If one happens to be the kind of person who HAS to (just HAS to) own a selmer or some other grail-ish horn...then, quite honestly...may they enjoy their just desserts.

If you are paying 15K you better not be under the delusion that it is an investment or a need...it is rather a "want". Wants cost us.
Indeedy. Sellers aren't stupid...they know when they have a grailish model, they aren't gonna just let it go...because there's some fool out there who's got the cash and they'll come around eventually....

With that said, IF one accepts the concept of THE EVIL FLIPPER...the middleman who does nothing but: buy the project horn, give it to the tech, pay the tech, get it back, and then list it for an absurd mark-up....

...it will bring you some joy to learn that..in this new economy...they ain't no longer makin' a DIME using that business model.

The folks who can sustain a used/vintage sorta business now....are the ones who know something about instruments & instrument repair and actually participate in the rehab of the instrument.....
 

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let's face it there are very few people working full time in the music business today either teaching or playing or both who could afford to pay 15k for a horn so those are usually not the people buying them. Some of the old Selmers are really ridiculously priced especially when you think how long it would take you to recoup playing 50 dollar jazz gigs. Those horns unfortunately will probably go to weekend warriors with solid day jobs or collectors. Luckily there are still great vintage horns for lower prices and from what we are seeing and hearing modern horns too.
 

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I think in favor of the flippers and "bottom feeders" is this fact: If these people had never generated the current market a lot of horns stuck away in attics, rotting and corroding, would have been lost. Additionally, the closet beauties that show up regularly would have been left to lord knows what end. So for better or worse the collectors market did act to save a large part of our musical heritage.

...just a thought that I think is worth considering (not that I like paying large sums for gear).
 

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At that price, you better hope a museum is looking to buy, like I've heard some wishful sellers say before.

The band director at our rival high school bought a Mark VI to show off. My lessons teach went to go play it, and he said it was the most out of tune saxophone he's ever played in his long career, and that was after they got it overhauled. He said it was just a lemon. Now, the only way that director is gonna even hope to break even is if some fool comes and buys it just because it's a Mark VI, like he did. It shows how stupid (and prideful) buyers can be. So who can blame the seller?

I asked my teacher just how bad it was. He said if he had lived a wrong lifestyle and spent eternity in hell, he'd be playing their Mark VI the whole time.
 

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I think a lot of the prices on eBay for non-selmers ie: martins, conns, bueschers- highlight to me how many great can be found here on SOTW.
That said, Ive still seen some good deals on vintage sellers recently, but mostly through private sales.
 

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My Couf Superba II tenor was a private local sale. It is about 99% original laquer, and one minor ding. Pads were all newer, everything adjusted. $1400 bucks. Would I pay $14,000 for a SBA, or $4400 for a 65% laquer Selmer VI? Nope. Would I spend $1400 for a similar Martin Comittee to my Couf? In a heartbeat.

This whole Selmer thing blows me away, it just really does. Go listen to some of the guys who did recordings in the 40's, 50's, 60's. It was their talent, style, imagination and tone that made them great, NOT "the horn they played".

I can afford ANY sax made out there, new or old, but I wasn't born yesterday. I think some of the people who buy these "collector horns" have the same small man complex as guys who have to own the biggers boat, the fastest car, etc.
 

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Show me the 'proof' that an offset anything is better than a non-offset...
My limited understanding about such things as offset Berg's, slant sigs, NY etc. is that they provide a way of dating an otherwise undatable mpc. It's easy with mpcs like Brilharts with serials for example.

Of course the logic that a same size model piece from the 50s is better compared to one from the 60s is hard to rationalise but with handcrafting techniques and retooling upgrades the differences are at least palpable.

I personally like older things. Something with history and soul - irrational I know but at least I'd never pay more than say $4000 for any horn new or vintage - that's what I call irrational! ;)
 
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