Vintage mouthpieces
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double post sorryving said:
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I agree and I have had some great links and most of the great players of the 50's and 60's were playing links But they weren't easy to play. For me most links were stuffy.ving said:
If all these Vintage links were all that There never would have been a Guardala
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It seems like a lot of those $850 Killer Minty Early Babbit Links get relisted on ebay about 5 to 10 times before someone buys'em.
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i take a modern low cost runyon any day
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It is a truly wonderful feeling to be happy with what you're playing. And in that regard, having played some rather outstanding vintage pieces, I can understand their pull. However, it is true, that just because there happen to be some fine vintage mouthpieces, that does not preclude one from getting that truly wonderful feeling when they find the right modern piece. Now that experience I know... and of course the even more wonderful feeling of unloading the vintage mouthpieces I did own for a killing...
From my perspective having worked in music retail over the last 8 years as well as teaching and playing, I am just tired of the hype with vintage horns, mouthpieces, etc. I have always been interested in equipment and mouthpieces, but for my personal playing it just gets in the way of actually playing music and improving, which is hard enough. Anyhow, just a reflection on how the ebay phenomenon has changed that aspect of playing the saxophone--used to be fun to look at pieces and horns. Now everyone who finds an old link in a case somewhere puts it up there as "killer!". I think this is the result of the intersecting of players, collectors, and hobbyists all in the same arena.
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Ving,ving said:
I'm in agreement with what you said here. I think we actual working players are a minority on this forum and speaking for myself I want and need only horns and mpcs that WORK. I long ago gave up even actually caring what my gear sounds like because it all sounds the same to me and all works the same, the key word being WORKS. Links were $19.00 when I started working and I'll admit I've bought some in the $200.00 range but I wasn't surprised that they weren't worth anymore or played any better because they'd aged, than they were at the original $19 bucks they sold for. Even moreso than the collectors I think it's the hobbyists who spend the most time and $ fretting over this so called "vintage" desirability and what they consider as such. Sorry guys but a MK VI is not a vintage horn-there are no vintage Japanese horns of any make-they are older modern horns. A Babbitt Link is not a vintage mpc. In fact nothing post WW II is vintage-just old(er).
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Though I agree with most of what you said and wht you're trying to say here. You really need to go to a dictionary and look up the word "vintage." Something can be made this year and technically be called "vintage."Thomas said:
One of the problems is that people don't truly understand that the word doesn't mean anything. At least the word "antique" would be a slight improvement but it just doens't sound as cool to the consumer. (I believe the government will consider buildings for historical status and there contents as antiques at 25+ years is what I have heard).
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As this is a discusion forum and the market place also carries description of these older pieces we should really live and let live with regard to content but I am with you to a degree.
If someone wants to pay top dollar because something is in an unmodified condition and is no longer produced, meaning demand outstrips supply.... its fair game.
However following Vings original point it seems pointless to praise them so highly and repeatedly when (and backing up many other thoughts in this thread)...so many of these pieces have been refaced or modified in someway since, because they either weren't that good in the first place, damaged beyond playability or are now pretending to be something of a different design.
Anyways most of these 'killer' pieces certainly aren't original.
I had a ROC britone (not that this piece is in the same killer vein as the typical florida's e.t.c.) for alto but they are currently over rated and in demand. An investment indeed (did someone say Grafton?) But you gotta do it for love!
Now I guess that leaves two things for me to say.
1) My opinion should no way invalidate the 'live and let live' law I laid down at the begining of my post :joker:
2) I didn't say that a good design can't be made better (its the early babbit/florida link blank that appears so important, am I right?)
If someone wants to pay top dollar because something is in an unmodified condition and is no longer produced, meaning demand outstrips supply.... its fair game.
However following Vings original point it seems pointless to praise them so highly and repeatedly when (and backing up many other thoughts in this thread)...so many of these pieces have been refaced or modified in someway since, because they either weren't that good in the first place, damaged beyond playability or are now pretending to be something of a different design.
Anyways most of these 'killer' pieces certainly aren't original.
I had a ROC britone (not that this piece is in the same killer vein as the typical florida's e.t.c.) for alto but they are currently over rated and in demand. An investment indeed (did someone say Grafton?) But you gotta do it for love!
Now I guess that leaves two things for me to say.
1) My opinion should no way invalidate the 'live and let live' law I laid down at the begining of my post :joker:
2) I didn't say that a good design can't be made better (its the early babbit/florida link blank that appears so important, am I right?)
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Tenney, Ackerman, and others (Lamberson, Barone?) are making mouthpieces today based on the best vintage designs. Those pieces typically cost about $300-500 new. Their availability and pricing influence the market and pricing of older mouthpieces. Yet regardless of the quality of modern pieces there will always be some premium paid for vintage pieces because they are, in fact, in limited supply and have extrinsic value to many people beyond their playing characteristics.
This holds true for saxophones as well as mouthpieces. Because some modern horns costing $3,000 can compete favorably with Mark VIs and Super 20s, they keep costs from skyrocketing. Yet there is still some premium paid for the vintage horns because they are in limited supply.
It does appear that some mouthpiece dealers are cornering the market to some extent and driving prices up. They snap up Florida Links for $500 and resell them for more than $800. The average buyer has to pay the dealer's asking price. This bugs me, but it seems to be a natural development in a functioning marketplace, and the dealers arguably provide a service by gathering sought-after pieces and marketing them to the public.
This holds true for saxophones as well as mouthpieces. Because some modern horns costing $3,000 can compete favorably with Mark VIs and Super 20s, they keep costs from skyrocketing. Yet there is still some premium paid for the vintage horns because they are in limited supply.
It does appear that some mouthpiece dealers are cornering the market to some extent and driving prices up. They snap up Florida Links for $500 and resell them for more than $800. The average buyer has to pay the dealer's asking price. This bugs me, but it seems to be a natural development in a functioning marketplace, and the dealers arguably provide a service by gathering sought-after pieces and marketing them to the public.
It's just advertising. Not a big deal to me. I've sold a few "Vintage" mouthpiece on E-bay. I try not describe how a mouthpiece plays but simply condition, possible age, history if possible (Not using names).
It's just a tool - Owning a GREAT HAMMER, doesn't make someone a master carpenter. Owning a OLD hammer doesn't either.
It's just a tool - Owning a GREAT HAMMER, doesn't make someone a master carpenter. Owning a OLD hammer doesn't either.
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"Extrinsic value" indeed... I still recall playing through shelves full of Florida Links at Ponti's until I found a good one. All the rest of them would sell for just as much as that good one today. Amazing. It makes a Freddie Gregory or Fred Lamberson 'piece appear an absolute bargain to me.bfoster64 said:
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Can I add my pennyworth here.
I very much respect anyone who earns a living from playing the sax, more-so I am even jealous, however as a newbie who has loved the sound of the sax all my life and being an oldun at the ripe age of 47, modern sax's appear to sound a lot different than the old vintage (SIC) ones.
I have just paid $159 for a New York Otto Link as I rather hope to emulate that era, whereas a good musician can and will alter his tone to replicate it.
So maybe we are suckers and have too much money to burn, nothing wrong with dreaming though.
:shock:
I very much respect anyone who earns a living from playing the sax, more-so I am even jealous, however as a newbie who has loved the sound of the sax all my life and being an oldun at the ripe age of 47, modern sax's appear to sound a lot different than the old vintage (SIC) ones.
I have just paid $159 for a New York Otto Link as I rather hope to emulate that era, whereas a good musician can and will alter his tone to replicate it.
So maybe we are suckers and have too much money to burn, nothing wrong with dreaming though.
:shock: 
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If you're willing to pay added unjustifiable $$$ for something based on an adjective feel free, but I think that many less informed/experienced players, hobbyists and collectors are offered and buying mostly myth when the term "vintage" is attached to mpcs and horns. I gag when I hear the term associated with yamaha and yanigasawa horns.Swampcabbage said:
(I believe the government will consider buildings for historical status and there contents as antiques at 25+ years is what I have heard).[/QUOTE]
who cares what the gov't considers-they're always wrong! I gag when I hear gov't too.
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As the proud owner of a refaced well-worn Florida Link I can safely say it's definately something special. And no, I didn't spend a zillion bucks for it. But if I ever do find something better (the Phil Barone Jazz could be) I do plan to go for a zillion on eBay.
Until then, I just say I play "vintage" and accept the street credibility points for what they are worth.
Until then, I just say I play "vintage" and accept the street credibility points for what they are worth.
IMHO and for my tastes the links from the late/mid 50s to the early 60s are some beautiful beautiful things and worth absolutely every penny people pay for them even if you have to get them worked on and have to buy more than one before they find a good one.ving said:
This is really out there... Mouthpieces and horns are hard and fast physical reality objects... not in any way myths. They are made on a certain date by a certain manufacturer and have cetain physical characteristics.Thomas said:
I know we live in a psychobable world where everything is an "addiction", we all have "GAS", we have to "just get over it" and everything is "all in our minds" but physical objects are real physical objects and have absolutely nothing to do with our imagination.
how in the world can someone get "sick and tired" of other people trading around physical objects for money ? and more importantly how can something that is a basic essential to playing the saxophone (a mouthpiece) "get in the way" of playing the saxophone ? (it is kind of in between us and the saxophone) So here again we are seing "mouthpiece" physical object transformed into an imaginary part of psychobable counseling culture of ~off the wall~ "addiction" concepts. it makes us "sick and tired" and hold us back like a drugving said:
we can't stop using.
this one is a version of the psychobable game "things ain't what they used to be" which is ironically the same things mouthpieces are being acused of. this is clearly a form of "projection".ving said:
as a person that was a saxophone player pre-ebay. ebay has in fact changed things way for the better. Who new the world was so full of all this cool old stuff. the answer is "we didn't" we just used to have what existed in our own little local market and that was never alot.Also what happened is local price structures became global price structures. globalization economics of supply and demand 101.
what i think the Original poster is actually complaning about is lies and misrepresentation on ebay. marketing lies told about physical reality objects...
lies and misrepresentation are not in any way a new thing invented on ebay and are older that the stone tools used to make those moldy old mouthpieces.
first task is to stop looking and physical objects like they are "imaginary"
and look at them for what they really are and what you think they are really worth. Then advertising has no effect. Perhaps the entire psychobable cutlure thing is in and of itself an "addiction" to advertising.
we can call it a form of "narcasistic personality disorder" where we thing mouthpieces are being created by our imagination.
because physical mouthpieces today really are not what they once were but funky salesmen selling snake oil is a timeless thing.
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Old or new, borrowed and blue....just strap a popsicle stick on a well made piece and blow....And yes, ebay has has hyped the attic through the roof. I personally wouldnt toss my money into such a dark wet elevator shaft but to each his/her own.
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