Very old baritone Conn from 1920 s ?Should I go for it..?
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The thing is, you've got four shortcomings with these old old Conns.
1) Octave pip on neck but key on body. The correct solution to this would be to graft an octave key from another horn, cut off the pad cup on the existing body-mounted key, and use a partial ring to allow angular adjustment. There's some kind of a little projection that holds the neck in a fixed alignment, which would need to be removed.
2) Keyed to high Eb. Of course one can develop alternate fingerings and woodshed them till they are reliable and become second nature.
3) Require large chamber mouthpiece and proper embouchure and voicing, otherwise the whole horn is wicked sharp and/or middle E and F are wicked sharp.
4) No front F, which of course can be fabricated and added.
Any one of these can be adapted to, some with a cost, some with trouble, some with both. But four of them get to be a bit much.
1) Octave pip on neck but key on body. The correct solution to this would be to graft an octave key from another horn, cut off the pad cup on the existing body-mounted key, and use a partial ring to allow angular adjustment. There's some kind of a little projection that holds the neck in a fixed alignment, which would need to be removed.
2) Keyed to high Eb. Of course one can develop alternate fingerings and woodshed them till they are reliable and become second nature.
3) Require large chamber mouthpiece and proper embouchure and voicing, otherwise the whole horn is wicked sharp and/or middle E and F are wicked sharp.
4) No front F, which of course can be fabricated and added.
Any one of these can be adapted to, some with a cost, some with trouble, some with both. But four of them get to be a bit much.
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Well, first you'd have to drill out a high E and high F tonehole before you'd get there... but that's beside the point. The limitations have already been set forth. The quirks are known. The value is known. Also... and wait for it... the potential benefits are known given the OP's particular wants and desires. It doesn't need customization and it would be a waste of resources to do so.
I got great use out of mine over the years playing with a rock/pop/jazz combo. It was given to me many, many years ago and I doubt I put more than a couple hundred bucks into it to get the neck loop, octave mechanism right and never really needed to do much more than that. It still holds adjustment and plays fine for me on any given day. How long have you had yours?
Whoops, brain fart on the front F.
I don't know if you're asking ME how long I've had my Conn baritone - I've had it since 1984, but it's not one of the old ones - it's from 1946 and has the front F and of course the modern octave key setup. It also plays wicked sharp with small chamber pieces.
It just struck me that I have now owned this instrument for just about exactly half its lifetime.
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Oh, I thought maybe you had one, or had one you let go, as bari is your main axe, right? I've always wanted a decent low bari, and played one in college owned by the school (a VI). But I just don't get many bari gigs, and that's why for what little I've done over the years, the ancient Conn is for me. If I had to play in a big band or an ensemble that read charts, no doubt the Conn would have to go.
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Imagine my shock when sight-reading a show rehearsal years ago, a high E showed up with no way to play it..... 😕
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Oh, you can get a high E with these baris. Not as easy as with a soprano with the limited range, but it can be done in a variety of ways. I get it by fingering Eb3 and adding LH 1 2 3 G#. With my Buescher curvy, I only have to add the G# key
No, you've already worked out the playing of high E and F with alternate fingerings. Most charts don't put the bari up there much anyway.
I've played for 38 years without a low A, in big bands, rock bands, small groups, concert bands, etc.,etc., etc. On occasion I have to alter a line. Only one musical director in one band ever made any comment about no low A and I agreed that I would play a low A horn if he'd buy it for me.
Years ago a guy told me he had seen Maynard Ferguson's band and the bari player was trying to stuff his foot down the bell to play low As, while standing, and it looked ridiculous. My response: When Maynard, or Buddy Rich, or Gordon Goodwin, offers me the baritone chair, I'll go out and buy a low A horn. Surprisingly enough, none of these big name guys ever called me.
Anyway, my point was that for a non-bari-playing person, the old Conns have several issues. I wouldn't be afraid of any of them, but I'm a professional mechanical engineer with extensive experience at modifying all sorts of machinery, including saxophones, and as I note, I've been playing a Conn baritone for a very long time.
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Good point on the paint possibility - BUT I am not so sure, look at the pic in post #21 which OP provided....above serial # there are fine scratches on the gold finish...would paint scratch like that ? Would scratches on the silverplaye actually show thru spray paint like that ?
Might be painted but I am not quite convinced (?)
Anyways....yeah, its limitations have been described. Again it'd be something else if your total investment was gonna be relatively low...but...it wouldn't be...
Might be painted but I am not quite convinced (?)
Anyways....yeah, its limitations have been described. Again it'd be something else if your total investment was gonna be relatively low...but...it wouldn't be...
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A boy can still dream and it's never too late to have a happy childhood!
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I was going by the mostly sharp edges of the tarnish. with worn plating I'd expect more smooth transitions but of course, judging from a few photographs is like rolling dice.
That finish looks kind of like "Permagold" which is a zinc plate with yellow dichromate conversion coating. It has a tendency to flake, whereas gold plate has a tendency to wear.
If it were me I would NOT try to strip it. You're likely to end up with a dull zinc plated horn with points of wear through to brass, which will quickly look like a galvanized fence post. I'm also not sure what it takes to strip a dichromate conversion coating while leaving the Zn substrate alone. Or what it takes to strip the dichromate AND the zinc, without eating up all the brass. It might theoretically be possible to spot repair a yellow dichromate coating, but the chemicals are REAL REAL nasty and definitely not suited for DIY. Most manufacturers (auto parts, mostly) have been going far far away from yellow chromate conversion coatings for some years now.
Like most old finishes, 99% of the battle is leaving it the heck alone.
As I noted above, if I had a lot of time and I ran across one of these I might well fix it up with modifications just for fun, knowing there would be no ROI. Something I've always wanted to do is to take an old Conn baritone and turn it into a true low A with proper bell taper. Something like this could be the test bed.
Oh well, maybe someday when the work's all done.
If it were me I would NOT try to strip it. You're likely to end up with a dull zinc plated horn with points of wear through to brass, which will quickly look like a galvanized fence post. I'm also not sure what it takes to strip a dichromate conversion coating while leaving the Zn substrate alone. Or what it takes to strip the dichromate AND the zinc, without eating up all the brass. It might theoretically be possible to spot repair a yellow dichromate coating, but the chemicals are REAL REAL nasty and definitely not suited for DIY. Most manufacturers (auto parts, mostly) have been going far far away from yellow chromate conversion coatings for some years now.
Like most old finishes, 99% of the battle is leaving it the heck alone.
As I noted above, if I had a lot of time and I ran across one of these I might well fix it up with modifications just for fun, knowing there would be no ROI. Something I've always wanted to do is to take an old Conn baritone and turn it into a true low A with proper bell taper. Something like this could be the test bed.
Oh well, maybe someday when the work's all done.
Well, at this point there's only one way I'll ever get to play in Maynard's or Buddy's band and I'm not ready for that just yet.
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I think you are quite possibly right. I'm skeptical that it's silver plated under the gold color. If it was factory silver plate, it should have engraving around the logo. This horn very likely was originally bare brass (or if plated, nickel) when it left Conn. Who knows what was done to it in the 104 years since, but I'd guess Permagold is much likelier than someone having it actually gold plated. Plus, as you noted, gold plate doesn't wear like that, with sharp edges where it's missing like on this horn. That gold coating looks way thicker than gold plate, which is very thin.
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I just looked up Permagold here and that looks about right.
And ditto to leaving it alone other than maybe cleaning the horn.
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Mine's from around 1920, has its original silver plate and gold wash bell, but with only the C.G.Conn logo on the bell. No added engraving whatsoever.
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Thanks Grump.
I have not acquired that bari.
And the more and more i read about these comments..
Simply,,i am after another one.
I don t want to have so much head aches around this.
Many thanks
All the best
Saxobari
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