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Using reed geek to change strength of reed

13K views 83 replies 24 participants last post by  reedcusa 
#1 ·
Can a reed geek be used to uniformly change a reed that is, for example, a 3 to a 2 1/2. If so, how exactly?
 
#2 ·
It's really meant for balancing the reed and flattening its underside.
In theory you can 'soften' the reed by adjusting in the appropriate areas, but it may not be exactly the same as a 2.5 as the reeds are all made to the same shape, and you're going to be removing material.

If you know where the green oval used to be on LaVoz reeds, that's the place to scrape it down, if you want to soften it. It doesn't need that much taking off, so scrape it a little and play test it. If it needs a bit more, scrape a little then test again.
 
#3 ·
once a reed has been manufactured eg: cut, filed, shaped etc, it's strength is determined by its natural and inherent rigidity. The manufacturing process attempts to produce a reed with as much uniformity and symmetry as possible. The manufacturing process is not an exact science and some lack of uniformity often exists due to the inherent nature of the cane . The methods of manually adjusting a reed to make it 'more uniform' are plentiful. The "Reed Geek" is a tool claimed to provide you with an 'easy means' to employ many of these methods. eg: to easily remove a "little" of the cane where deemed necessary to make it more uniform and for flattening its underside. Flattening the underside is just as often achieved by careful rubbing across a sheet of paper or exceedingly fine glass paper (hyper find sand paper). Other tools used are razor blades, knives, various scrapers etc. The reed geek aims to be an all in one tool. It has its advocates among those who understand reed characteristics.

To reduce a reeds rigidity from a 2.5 to a 2 (for example) I would not consider possible via manual manipulation. The resistance of a reed will diminish with use and become less playable. When this happens one can clip / trim the reed to restore some of its lost resistance and add a little more life to the reed.

There exists methods to reduce a reeds inherent rigidity but not to reduce this a much as inquired about by (the OP) yourself.
 
#81 ·
To reduce a reeds rigidity from a 2.5 to a 2 (for example) I would not consider possible via manual manipulation.
Beg to differ. I routinely reduce a reed's hardness/rigidity by various methods. Sanding the bottom (although avoiding sanding under the delicate tip) often works well if the reed plays well overall, but feels a bit hard. A reed that blows hard in the lower register (starting for example at the low D) is softened by scraping at the base of the vamp. Then there is balancing the reed - one side vs the other, removing asymmetries. For example, I found all recently bought Fibracells to be thicker on one side than the other. Remedying this (Perfectareed gauge to find the asymmetry) will make a Fibracell feel at least 1/2 to 1 number softer. I use a razor or a small sanding stick.
 
#6 ·
Where is the green oval that used to be on LaVoz reeds? Are you guys saying to focus on the sides of the reed then? I never realized reed strength wasn't thickness, always just assumed I guess- so what would be the best way to work on it? Got a whole box of Rigotti 3s- I generally like these reeds, but it takes so long to break them in.
 
#51 ·
I chose to try this method- it worked. The big thing I'm learning here is that the issue is thickness of fiber which I didn't realize. So true a little bit goes a long way- I actually overdid it pretty quickly. I think reed geek is more for balancing it out. So many years I've tried to kind of file it down hard reeds- that's why it never worked. I think I can save this box, but maybe better to go down half a size next box- I seem to change my reed strength and wonder why that would be? Maybe sometimes I'm playing more and have more chops than other times? Is it a chop issue? Do people with better chops always play harder reeds?
 
#13 ·
This is extremely unscientific and risky, but I've "softened" reeds by bending them between my finger and thumb enough to stretch/weaken/break some of the fibers. Do it in multiple, very conservative iterations until you get the softness you want. I do most of the bend about an inch from the tip, where the vamp starts to thicken. This has about the same effect as removing material. You bend it up, down, then straighten it out again, using a flat surface to confirm it's straight. Practice on some reeds you've already scrapped until you get the hang of it. I only do this in emergencies, as it's not very precise, could completely ruin the reed and shortens the life. But it works in a pinch, and doesn't require any tools.
 
#18 ·
Just want to clarify something that was hinted but not mentioned explicitly. All reeds of a particular brand and style are cut exactly the same (well, as near exactly as possible). So a Rigotti 2 light and 3.5 strong are cut on the same machine. What determines their grade is measuring the strength on another machine that bends the tip of the reed a little and measures the resistance.

Changing the strength of a reed (from, say, a 3 to a 2 1/2) is difficult because as soon as you start sanding the vamp, you are changing the profile of the reed and thus its sound. Same objection to sanding the back of the reed a lot - it just makes for a thinner, more Rico-like reed.

One can slightly soften a reed by sanding the sides and tip - but stay away from the heart. Grumps, I hate to disagree with you, but I almost always sand the tip of the reed, and usually one side or the other depending on which side blows harder in the "twist the mouthpiece in your mouth side-to-side test". I balance every reed as soon as I take it out of the box, using that test, and aside from an occasional minor tweak later on, that's all I do.

Sonja, I suggest that you learn to balance your reeds, I'll bet it's not that they are too strong, but merely stiffer on one side or the other. Very common, and almost unavoidable due to the nature of cane itself.
 
#21 ·
Grumps, I hate to disagree with you, but I almost always sand the tip of the reed, and usually one side or the other depending on which side blows harder in the "twist the mouthpiece in your mouth side-to-side test".
Oh, that's quite alright. I'm only offering tips to get her started, like I did, a little at a time. I'm not someone who regularly works on reeds, and someone with that sort of experience will know more than me about potentially fine tuning them. I like 'em right out of the box anyhow, but have made reeds more playable simply by sanding that one spot. Very sparingly... a little at a time.
 
#22 ·
I heard of players who prefer to buy harder reeds and adjust them themselves giving them more playing reeds and more control.
I never tried the reedgeek*cause it seems an overpriced tool. You can find similar things at a fraction of the price in online diy stores. A cheap flat spare blade for few cents will do the same.
What is also expensive is the Vandoren RR200 glass sanding surface and glass sanding stick that are easier to work for someone with no experience at adjusting reeds.
https://www.amazon.ca/Vandoren-RR200-Woodwind-Instrument-Cleaning/dp/B0002CZRJ0
I got one as a present and the glass surface is very nice. Hard glass that you can wash after use, very small in a nice box that you can carry everywhere.
Sandpaper does the same at a fraction of the price but you will still need a flat surface to put it on and is not that elegant. Make sure you never sand the tip of the reed or it will become too thin.
I also used reed rush for long time to balance the reed.
That can be very cheap and it is easy to grow it yourself, but it can not flatten the reed only balance it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equisetum_hyemale
A completely different approach if you are handy is to partially drill a hole in the reed.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?534-Reed-drilling
 
#23 ·
So reed adjustment has now become an incredibly arcane mystical thing, rather than one of the basic skills of playing woodwinds?

Get a small penknife, if it's too hard scrape it down, if it's too soft clip it (then you may need to adjust the tip, thinning the tip to compensate for the clipping). If it's not even side to side, balance it. If the back's not flat, scrape it flat.

Get a couple books on reed adjustment and experiment.

Short answer: it is ABSOLUTELY possible to reduce the strength of a reed that's too hard by scraping.

When did it become received wisdom that you can't? I've only been doing it for 40+ years now, just like every woodwind teacher I ever had back in those days.
 
#24 ·
Since the age of 12, I'm 58, I've been softening too hard reeds using basically sandpaper and glass.
1000-2000 grit wet/dry.
I go 10 strokes on the back followed by sanding along the outline of the heart. I do avoid the actual tip, and only sand the heart if absolutely necessary.
Making a test toot during the process helps to not take the sanding too far.
It is possible to reduce the 'strength' of a reed from a 3 to a 2.5. It just takes experience and usually less than 5 minutes. ;)
 
#38 ·
I do the same thing on my granite sanding slab. Varying grits of sandpaper, but definitely the finer grits if the reed is close to where I want it. I'm glad someone else out there does something similar. I thought I was the only one left not using fancy contraptions to adjust reeds.
 
#25 ·
Consider, if you will, what makes reeds of the same dimension vary in strength? Surely it's the number of stiff fibers and their strength. So a hard reed scraped down is now thinner, but it's got the same amount of the stiff fibers as a thicker reed tha's less dense and thus weaker.
 
#29 ·
I only recently tried cutting, sanding or scraping a reed to try and improve it. None of it fixed, improved or helped the problem (buzzy sound) I was having with them.

But putting the flat side on sandpaper and working it like I saw on some YouTube videos only made them feel a little softer. Though it made the horrible buzzy sound worse for me. Sanding on the top only helped smooth out the rough parts for me.

Someone on another thread suggested $5.00 Harbor Freight tool as a reed tool. Just tried it yesterday and it appears to work like the Reed Geek.
 
#36 ·
Here's a point for consideration. I don't know how many of the people on this forum know of Ed Joffe's superb interviews of woodwind players, but go look it up on YouTube if you haven't seen any of them. While there, pay particular attention to the interview of Stanley Drucker, long-time first chair clarinet in the NY Philharmonic. He mentions his upbringing, and how his first teacher told him to use Vandoren reeds. These reeds were not graded to strength, they were just all cut the same. Some were hard, some were soft, all had to be worked on to make them play. He remembers when Vandoren started putting numbers on reeds (a process that I submit they could still use some help with...)

I was taught (on clarinet) that you HAD to work your reeds to make them play right. My teacher had set up with a local glazier to sell small pieces of 1/4" plate glass to his students (I think they were a dollar). Then we got reed rush at Forrest Music (next door to the glazier!) and he showed his students how to adjust reeds. I don't remember what exactly he taught me to do, as I soon figured it out for myself. I ruined a few reeds in the process. But I have always assumed that reeds need a little gentle persuasion to really play well.

In my opinion, it's part of being a clarinet or saxophone player. Just like using cork grease, or oiling the keys every 6 months, or using a swab (or a Shove-It) every time you play. I've never been able to figure out why some people think that reeds right out of the box should play, in my experience only one or two out of 25 play well out of the box. Yet I know that many players don't bother with working on reeds, and throw away half or more of the reeds they buy. Seems kinda shortsighted to me ... if you accept, for example, that in learning to adjust reeds you will ruin, say, 10 reeds, then the next box of 10 you buy yields (with work) 9 great reeds - well, you are close to even in terms of cash and in the future you will be saving a lot of money! Plus, you will have greater consistency in the reeds you play, as you will learn how to make them play the way you want.

OK, I'm off the soap box now, really go watch the interview of Stanley Drucker if you haven't seen it, and all the other Joffe videos too.
 
#45 ·
Regarding reed manufacturing precision, I don't think that cane has changed much in the 60 or so years I've been playing woodwinds. I don't care how tight the tolerances are in the reed shapers and cutters (and even the hand operated tools of yesteryear could be accurate to at least 0.001"), the cane itself will vary from reed to reed and within the same reed.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the only way to tell how a reed will play is playing the reed. I use a play test (the "twist mouthpiece in mouth" test) that identifies side-to-side imbalance. I no longer rely on visual cues when adjusting for this imbalance, I adjust based on the response of my play test.

I think it's unrealistic to expect a manufacturer to adjust individual reeds for the natural variations in cane stiffness within the same reed. All reeds of a particular cut (e.g. D'Addario Select Jazz Unfiled) are made the same way on the same machines. They are then strength graded on another machine. Variations within an individual reed cannot be addressed by these methods. It is these variations that you have to adjust for.

I use Rigotti reeds, and agree they are pretty consistent, but almost every reed requires some adjustment for side to side balance. I don't think this can be avoided, whether you pay $0.25 or $25.00 per reed.
 
#46 ·
Also reeds are not homogeneous . The number and strength of the fibbers varies.
When they test the reeds for strength and grade them they do it on dry reeds.
But in real time conditions two reeds with the same strength number as we all know can be quite different
 
#47 ·
Remember, reed cane is a natural product and varies. Even two reeds cut to the same physical dimensions and which have gauged out at the same strength will be different. Not only side to side balance, but also stiffness down the length of the vamp. Also, one reed might have more stiff fibers down the middle and another have more stiff fibers away from the centerline. All of these will cause a reed to play a bit differently, and pushing on the reed at one point and measuring its deflection (i.e., what's done in the factory) cannot adequately characterize these matters.

But y'all keep on throwing away 9 out of every 10 reeds because you don't want to work on them. It helps keep reed manufacturers' revenues up, so they stay in business.
 
#52 ·
Nope! There are players with amazing chops that play relatively soft reeds.
And yes, I know, strength used and tip opening of the mouthpiece are different for everyone. ;)
 
#56 ·
I often like to repeat a story told by Andrew N White that he reported in the now defunct Saxophone Journal.

He has a new student, and for diagnosis he plays a bit on her setup and she plays a bit on his (in the days before microbiology?) She is blown away by how responsive and rich-sounding his equipment is. He responds:

"Let's see now; you're 20 years old, 5 feet 4 inches tall, weighing 115 lbs, have been playing saxophone 10 years, and you're playing on a #8 mouthpiece with a #4 reed. I, on the other hand, am 50 years old, 6 feet tall, weighing 195 lbs, have been playing saxophone 45 years, and yet I'm playing on a #5 mouthpiece with a #2 1/2 reed. Why do you think you need to work so hard?"
 
#59 ·
I play bassoon as well as saxophone and have made my own reeds from cane blanks for over 50 years. I use many of the same tricks on sax reeds that I use on bassoon reeds to make them play better e.g. darker, quicker to respond, or just more to my liking. I've never bought blanks graded by hardness or type of cane, so I would disagree that reeds are graded that way. They are graded on their profile cut, ie thicker profile for higher numbered reeds. And filing, sanding and trimming all work to tune the reed to your preference without affecting its longevity significantly. Afterr all, this is done at the factory on a machine, so doing it by hand is not much different.
 
#62 ·
Reed strength and reed response are related. Sometimes when we say we need a "softer" reed, we really mean we want a reed that responds well with less effort on the part of the player. On pages 28 - 29 of "The Art of Saxophone Playing" there is an illustration showing numbered areas of a reed, and a chart giving instructions on where to scrape to achieve a specific correction.
 
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