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Discussion Starter #1
Public Forums like this are very powerful tools. I use them myself to hear 'unbiased' opinions.

With this power though, comes responsibility, as peoples lively hoods are affected. So please be sure and state facts as facts and opinions as opinions. It can be very tempting to add 'made-up facts' to justify a heavy feeling we are having, but if it is not the truth it can be very misleading and damaging to those involved.

Personally I spend a great deal of time and effort to make sure my customers are happy, and one very negative comment on a public forum can damage an otherwise very good reputation.

I believe strongly in the truth. I support all who whole-heartedly share both positive AND negative dealings with dealers. I simply ask that care, discernment, and factual statments be used in the process.

Dave Tondi
 

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Forum Contributor 2015, SOTW Better late than neve
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Hi Dave and well put. It's been my experience with this forum and others that the truth comes out the longer the thread last. The poster and the posted are both up to scrutiny. There are plenty here who can see through the lines. And, some who just don't get it.
 

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DaveTondi said:
Public Forums like this are very powerful tools. I use them myself to hear 'unbiased' opinions.

With this power though, comes responsibility, as peoples lively hoods are affected. So please be sure and state facts as facts and opinions as opinions. It can be very tempting to add 'made-up facts' to justify a heavy feeling we are having, but if it is not the truth it can be very misleading and damaging to those involved.

Personally I spend a great deal of time and effort to make sure my customers are happy, and one very negative comment on a public forum can damage an otherwise very good reputation.

I believe strongly in the truth. I support all who whole-heartedly share both positive AND negative dealings with dealers. I simply ask that care, discernment, and factual statments be used in the process.

Dave Tondi
PM sent
 

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This is all very true.

I once caused a guy to sell out his Firehouse Sub business with a post I made on a local internet forum. The guy's wife was running the place and she had insisted on telling me what kind of sub I was allowed to have instead of making it the way I wanted.

I'm sure there were other contributing factors, but I feel bad about the whole thing. How many guys have wives that get in bad moods now and then? They shouldn't close up shop because of it. When you make a post about someone's business, it's like pulling a trigger on a gun. You just can't get that bullet back, no mater how much you want to.
 

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After reading this I have decided to edit my post. Not becuase my opinion wasn't based on facts and my experience. I've known many people who have had similar experiences to mine. But, in the end, I like the person as a person, yet I would not trust them with a kazoo.

It's all good. Sunshine and lollipops here.
 

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Swampcabbage said:
...But, in the end, I like the person as a person, yet I would not trust them with a kazoo.

It's all good. Sunshine and lollipops here.
Your not being able to trust someone "with a kazoo" is "all good"?? :? :? Seems more like someone grinding an axe than "sunshine and lollipops" to me. :(
 

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Not to get too philosophical, but this is EXACTLY what bothers me about the Internet........ for the first time in history, anyone can "publish" freely, with or without a factual basis, and thereby reach a substantial and influential audience.... SOTW is a good case in point because it has a significant number of musicians and teachers who collectively have tremendous influence on the saxophone market...

Another thing to keep in mind....... it's not only the dealer's reputation that's at stake...... the forum "owner" can potentially face legal consequences for "allowing" publication (republication) of libelous materials.... this is a new and developing area of the law, and probably won't be settled for many years, but it's something else to keep in mind..........

Perhaps I'm just too cynical, but to me the Internet is at once a tremendous blessing and a curse........ a blessing because of the availability of information, and a curse because of its availability to anyone regardless of their background or motives.

Just my 2c.

Al
 

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alsdiego said:
Not to get too philosophical, but this is EXACTLY what bothers me about the Internet........ for the first time in history, anyone can "publish" freely, with or without a factual basis, and thereby reach a substantial and influential audience.... SOTW is a good case in point because it has a significant number of musicians and teachers who collectively have tremendous influence on the saxophone market...

Another thing to keep in mind....... it's not only the dealer's reputation that's at stake...... the forum "owner" can potentially face legal consequences for "allowing" publication (republication) of libelous materials.... this is a new and developing area of the law, and probably won't be settled for many years, but it's something else to keep in mind..........

Perhaps I'm just too cynical, but to me the Internet is at once a tremendous blessing and a curse........ a blessing because of the availability of information, and a curse because of its availability to anyone regardless of their background or motives.

Just my 2c.

Al
I realize the potential legality issues concerned and related to this cause. I am in the criminal justice field, so this is no new news. I always take that into mind and consideration on anything internet related, emails, posts, etc. I would stand up in any court of law against my claim and it would hold up. Nothing was out of place.

What needs to be said now, is that: Yes, reputations can be ruined freely on the www. People do need to realize that their words can be used against them and to mentally prepare thier thoughts before they hit the send button.

This thread started on account of a thread I started. It has been resolved properly. That fact of the matter is the ultimate goal in issuing forums, staements, comments, and concerns to these appropriate discussions, titles, and headlines.
 

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Deezie said:
I would stand up in any court of law against my claim and it would hold up. Nothing was out of place.
Really? With all due respect, please consider the following quotes from your original post:

"DO NOT EVER BUY A HORN FROM THESE GUYS. THEY ARE RIP OFFS!"

"He's a fraud and a liar."

"He's a scoundrel and I wouldn't trust his work or what he stands for."

"My case is proof he's only out for your money."

Deezie, I don't really care if you agree with me, but do you at least see my point?? There's a huge difference between facts (i.e., the horn had rusty springs), and conclusions such as "rip off", fraud". "liar" and "scoundrel". It's the conclusions that hurt people......
 

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thehighend said:
Your not being able to trust someone "with a kazoo" is "all good"?? :? :? Seems more like someone grinding an axe than "sunshine and lollipops" to me. :(
Yes, I was being sarcastic. I get the feeling that we're only supposed to be positive with this. It's okay to slag on a musician for bad intonation or not knowing the changes, etc... But if someone in the retail or commercial music business falls short then they just get to take a pass because they're just trying to make a living. Well, if I screw up in my day job it could cost people a lot of money. And I'm out of a job. It wreaks of double standards.

But, I deleted my comments anyway. At the very least, I wouldn't want SOTW to be held remotely responsible for my comments.
 

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Swampcabbage said:
But if someone in the retail or commercial music business falls short then they just get to take a pass because they're just trying to make a living. .
This is not at all true. They don't get to "take a pass" by any means. If someone in any retail business consistently falls short, they will be out of business. Also, with the internet these days, they will be quickly and soundly taken to task by any dissatisfied customers. That is as it should be! However, the other side of the coin is that anyone can make any claim, true or false, about a given business. If the claim is highly negative and false or misleading it can do serious damage to someone who does not deserve it. I don't know what the solution is, but I think it is well to point out that not every claim made, positive or negative, is necessarily accurate.

OTOH, if several reputable, reasonable customers have legitimate complaints about a given business, it is a service to the rest of us to bring those issues out in the open.

In any case, we have to read carefully and consider the source before believing anything.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
The ability to objectively describe a situation I believe to be a very important life-tool. It is something I still strive to do better with myself, and something (because of my own shortcomings) I have compassion for. The concequences of not doing so I believe are evident here.

Emotions while providing very valuable information can also cloud the facts, if that is all that is focused on.

In any kind of relationship if something happens I don't particularly care for it is easy to focus only on that, and miss that I am dealing with someone I have had a lot of good dealings with, good communication, etc. and on a larger level care for. If I focus ONLY on what I don't like I tend to see only that and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. This is true both personally and professionally for me.

In this current situation the WHOLE truth is I did find Deezie very monetarilly trustworthy. He paid for the horn even after he received it, and could have not done so. That is very admirable. I do not feel he acknowledged the trust I gave him in changing his mind on the horn he wanted, the fact that I shipped a horn to him without full payment because he said he needed it right away, that I was always available by phone & email, or that we had been having very good communication over the phone. These things are still true too.

But I am no-one to judge, I still have yet to meet the perfect person....myself definitely included.

PS. We came to a mutual understanding and description of the issue - which has been posted on the other Forum thread.
 

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I agree with that. On all points. I was referring more to the spirit of the original post which felt like "if you can't say anything nice..."

Every business has the right and duty to defend their reputation just as every customer has the right to demand a fair price for goods and services. I've known more than a few businesses whose job appears to be milking the customers. Fortunately, I've had just enough experience to sniff them out and I just don't go to them.

BTW, I was dealing with a completely different business than the case that was brought up here. Philosophically, however, I felt it applied here.
 

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Deezie said:
I realize the potential legality issues concerned and related to this cause... Nothing was out of place.
So you know better and you choose to be a jerk. Nice...
 

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DaveTondi said:
Public Forums like this are very powerful tools. I use them myself to hear 'unbiased' opinions.

With this power though, comes responsibility, as peoples lively hoods are affected. So please be sure and state facts as facts and opinions as opinions. It can be very tempting to add 'made-up facts' to justify a heavy feeling we are having, but if it is not the truth it can be very misleading and damaging to those involved.

Personally I spend a great deal of time and effort to make sure my customers are happy, and one very negative comment on a public forum can damage an otherwise very good reputation.

I believe strongly in the truth. I support all who whole-heartedly share both positive AND negative dealings with dealers. I simply ask that care, discernment, and factual statments be used in the process.

Dave Tondi
This is exactly the tact I attempted to take regarding my own thread about dissatisfaction with a retailer. I had exchanged several e-mails with the shop, and posted the entire exchange minus signature information (it seemed quite irrelevant). In the end, that omission lead to supporters of the shop derailing the thread, and it was eventually closed. I'll stand by the complete honesty of what I posted, and I'll bet you the shop owner will admit it. When a consumer is wronged, there are precious few methods of getting the problem settled in this world-wide-web-age. I chose to use this forum. In the end, if the shop had merely not made promises that weren't to be kept, the whole issue could have been avoided. With due respect, if his business suffers, it's by his own doing.
 

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JL said:
...If the claim is highly negative and false or misleading it can do serious damage to someone who does not deserve it. I don't know what the solution is, but I think it is well to point out that not every claim made, positive or negative, is necessarily accurate.
At least part of the solution is for others whose experience is different to step up to the defense of the retailer in question with their own experiences with the retailer. If one bad experience, real or invented, is counterbalanced by a multitude of positive experiences, the retailer shouldn't suffer too much as a result of the negative report.

Another solution is for the retailer to step in and defend themselves vigorously but with dignity. I think Dave has done that masterfully in this instance.
 

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BayviewSax said:
With due respect, if his business suffers, it's by his own doing.
I completely agree with you Bayview. This may be bias since we both had the same experience with the same retailer, but the factual information we posted about their business was indeed...facts. Even though the thread was closed and the supporters told us off, we did get our message out that people should watch out for the retailer. Therefore I have no regrets in posting information about a retailer when their business is in fact, poor.


If you have a bad experience, warn others. I think that's our duty as a community, but as said before do it with facts.
 

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Ethics

jacobeid said:
I completely agree with you Bayview. This may be bias since we both had the same experience with the same retailer, but the factual information we posted about their business was indeed...facts. Even though the thread was closed and the supporters told us off, we did get our message out that people should watch out for the retailer. Therefore I have no regrets in posting information about a retailer when their business is in fact, poor.

If you have a bad experience, warn others. I think that's our duty as a community, but as said before do it with facts.
I really hate to get even more philosophical, but due to some recent criminal activity that reflected poorly on a fellow employee...where I was the whistleblower :shock: ...I have received the following from many within my company. I will be deposed and testify against him in federal court, but his taking kickbacks for accepting shoddy work was seriously hurting our company's reputation with the regulatory agencies. Why did I blow the whistle...ethics. If a seller is consistently omitting the truth about an item's condition, I want to be warned. But, I hope the seller is given a chance to correct the misstep/momentary lack of ethics before it becomes internet fodder.

NAIL IN THE FENCE
There once was a little boy who had a bad temper. His Father gave him a bag of nails and told him that every time he lost his temper, he must hammer a nail into the back of the fence.

The first day the boy had driven 37 nails into the fence.

Over the next few weeks, as he learned to control his anger, the number of nails hammered daily gradually dwindled down. He discovered it was easier to hold his temper than to drive those nails into the fence.

Finally the day came when the boy didn't lose his temper at all. He told his father about it and the father suggested that the boy now pull out one nail for each day that he was able to hold his temper.

The days passed and the young boy was finally able to tell his father that all the nails were gone.

The father took his son by the hand and led him to the fence. He said, "You have done well, my son, but look at the holes in the fence. The fence will never be the same. When you say things in anger, they leave a scar just like this one. You can put a knife in a man and draw it out. It won't matter how many times you say I'm sorry, the wound is still there. A verbal wound is as bad as a physical one.
 
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