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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Now that the Series III & Reference horns have been out at least 10 years, there seems to be a good number of them out there, on eBay & used market...the prices seem to be CONSIDERABLY lower than a MKVI or other vintage Selmer....

I believe that one of these used Selmers would be a far better value than any Cannonball, Mauriat, Barone, etc...if I had an advanced student, I would recommend they consider this, instead of a Taiwan import.

Thoughts?
 

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My thought is a used late model Selmer Paris is gonna be around $3000. A used Taiwanese horn -- about $700.

There just isnt 4x the difference in 'performance' to justify the expense for a student.
 

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Yes, I am with hgiles. I have a soprano that is what you would refer to as "junk" and it is a great sax. There is still, IMHO, way too much difference in the price point to consider the Selmers (or at least consider them to be a better value as the OP states). I really do not find the Selmer Series III to be superior and have played a few. Some may like the feel of them and also love the fact that it is a "grand old name in saxes" but at four times the price in the used market, it seems to be still quite a stretch.
 

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Selmers remain more expensive than "junk" horns. They are probably better just now. But: the used Selmer you buy today will be as good in 20 years, while the "junkie"....
 

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I believe Black Obelisk is comparing used Selmers to new Taiwan horns and his point is you can get a used Selmer in good condition for the price of a new Taiwan horn.
 

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Again, there is that Selmer "attitude" towards Taiwanese instruments! IF everything were equal (including the price) I wouldn't even consider anything else but the Selmers (hey, I'm a Selmer snob as well!) Unfortunately, things are not equal. The Taiwanese saxes are becoming scarily good! Honestly, some of them may be better than the Selmers still being produced (that's as far as I will go! Like I said, Selmer snob.) What definitely is true is that the Taiwanese saxes are having to catch up with their "damage control" of their reputations! The "cheap junk" is still on the market (thank you China) so the reputation for "less than stellar quality" still hangs around like a foul odor from something burned on the stove the night before. This accounts for some of the pricing discrepancy. This, also, accounts for some really incredible deals on the new Taiwanese saxes that are definitely not junk! $700 vs $3000..... when put that way, the better deal isn't necessarily the Selmer (then again, if the Selmer "sings" to you, maybe it is!)
 

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er, I meant the price of New Taiwanese "junk" i.e. Cannonbal, Mauriat & all the other "splat" horns out there
Frankly the 2 brands you just mentioned here are considered junk by nobody (or nearly so) nowadays. Even if you leave out the official endorsers who might be paid to do so, there are non-endorsing pro players like Pete Thomas and well-known woodwind repair professional like Stephen Howard who have just good words about those (without saying that they must necessarily switch from their favourite gear).

The used price of either is likely 1500$+, while a used Selmer in comparable shape is twice as much at least (more for a Reference). So if price is in the picture I'd advise the advanced student you mention to consider one of those taiwanese brands, in particular in the used market (this alone got to be the best advise...).
Advising them that Selmer would be your pick would be a fair advise, while not considering those brands because they are junk would be a very biased advise.
 

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Funny and loaded way of starting a "I think Taiwanese horns are junk" thread.

If you think Taiwanese horns like Cannonball, Mauriat and others are junk, why in the world would you recommend them at all? Why even compare or ask for "thoughts"? You are obviously biased towards what you believe to be "non-junk" and many believe to be "overpriced junk".
 

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Well it seems clear you should shell out your hard earned cash to support Selmer rather than considering anything else. I shall still be content to "splat" away... Thanks for clarifying your "position". I thought you were actually asking for a comparison rather ranting about how poor you are already convinced all the other saxes are.
 

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OK, I'll play - I've owned and played Selmers for 30+ years or so.

Buy a used horn in top mechanical condition - regardless of marque. Buy a new Selmer and sell it - lose thousands of dollars; buy a new Taiwanese horn and sell it - lose hundreds of dollars.

I bought my last Selmer at used prices and sold it for a profit after several years of use - I now play Borgani. I no longer consider Selmer to be the only "best" tenor on the market. Life is good for tenor players these days, you don't have to drive a beater car just to afford a good horn.
 

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equake is right. My post is about buying a used, newer model Selmer vs. the price of a NEW Taiwanese horn.
Its not exactly comparing like to like to compare new anything to used anything is it? If you are in the market for a new horn of any type, surely its self evident that you are likely going to get better value looking at a second hand version of the same thing.

Really isnt the real situation going to be more like "I have $3k to spend on a horn, should I buy a new <insert taiwanese brand name here>, a used late model Selmer, or a used <insert taiwanese brand name here> and pocket the spare $1500"

And thats not even getting into the many many other alternative way to spend $3k and come out of it with a good horn...

In the long run I think a used Selmer will hold much of their value, it remains to be seen how the others do.
 

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Our local music store in Wichita sells Cannonball, Yamaha and Selmer saxes but after I enquired about trying some of the new Selmers, I was told that they only get them in when someone orders one(!) The salesman confided to me that he hasn't seen a new Selmer in quite some time (well...duh!! I wouldn't shell out $6-7000 for a new saxophone, sight unseen, no matter who's name is on it!) Now, this store is probably one of the two most recognizable and reputable stores in Kansas. Cannonball is their "featured" line so they must be doing something right!
 

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equake is right. My post is about buying a used, newer model Selmer vs. the price of a NEW Taiwanese horn.
I would NEVER pay $3000+ for a any new Taiwanese horn! If a student came to me with $3000 to spend, I would point him in the direction of minty Yanagisawas, Keilwerths, and Yamahas. If a Selmer was available in the price range it would be under considerations as well. Still, $3000 Selmers are rarely available, and not as abundant as the others (Y's especially) and with that abundance the selection and probability of finding a good one goes up.
 

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Selmers remain more expensive than "junk" horns. They are probably better just now. But: the used Selmer you buy today will be as good in 20 years, while the "junkie"....
This is exactly the point. A Selmer is built to last a 100 years. Also, it will preserve most of its market value.
 

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This is exactly the point. A Selmer is built to last a 100 years.
Just about every horn will last as long as a Selmer.
Even Adolphe's original horns are still going - and they're among the worst built I've ever seen.

Regards,
 

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Our local music store in Wichita sells Cannonball, Yamaha and Selmer saxes but after I enquired about trying some of the new Selmers, I was told that they only get them in when someone orders one(!) The salesman confided to me that he hasn't seen a new Selmer in quite some time (well...duh!! I wouldn't shell out $6-7000 for a new saxophone, sight unseen, no matter who's name is on it!) Now, this store is probably one of the two most recognizable and reputable stores in Kansas. Cannonball is their "featured" line so they must be doing something right!
The same thing is going on with Sam Ash. They used to be known for stocking the top of the line horns in some of the "big four".

They had both Selmer Reference horns along with Serie II's and III's plus Yamaha 82 Z's and 62 II's.

The profit margin was slim so....

Then they began to push Cannonball( when I first heard that name I thought of a certain alto sax player. Shrewd subtle marketing, I don't care what they say. ) and Conn-Selmer's Asian brands La Vie and La Voix.

Then Conn-Selmer( no connection to Selmer Paris except for distribution rights) discontinued the Taiwan made La Vie and pushed the Chinese made La Voix.

And when they figured that was giving players too much value they started emphasizing their store brand, Jean Baptiste which sounds French but is made in China.

One day when I walked in the store they told me I just missed Kenny G promoting his brand ( Aw shucks ). I'm surprised the " Kardashian " hasn't come out. ( One of the words spell checker suggested for Kimi's last name was Balderdash.)

Now there's a name for a saxophone.

The new flavor is P. Mauriat which sounds French and now costs almost as much as a new Selmer. It's amazing that if you tell a lie long enough people will believe it. I'm talking about Paris stamped on their horns and the French bandleader's name.. Which means if you look at the horn while squinting your eyes you can say to yourself " By golly this is a French made horn. Wait a minute hold the phone , It's better ! "

So now you're shelling out over four grand for the Houli horn because of deception and outright prevarication by not stamping the country of origin on the horn.

Over all the Yamahas, Selmers and Yanagisawas are looking pretty good to me if the Taiwan horns cost just as much. I'll even throw in the Keilwerth.

As for buying a horn sight unseen I wouldn't either but in some stores you can put down 10 per cent and if you don't like the horn I guess they deduct the restocking fee from that.

Or just travel to a city where they stock the horns and Always try before you buy.
 

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Seen the latest WWBW catalog? "Intermediate" ROC horns are now around $2000, "Pro" models are $3000-4000!!!
I've been looking for a new alto for around $1000, and decided that it makes more sense to pay a bit more for a used Yani than to get any ROC horn.
By the way, where can you get a used Mauriat (or other 'better' Taiwan horns) for $700 or even $1200???

Last 100 years? Maybe, but in 100 years (hell, 10 years), who is going to know whether a particular model number of one of these new off-brand horns is a student or pro model?
 

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Just about every horn will last as long as a Selmer.
Even Adolphe's original horns are still going - and they're among the worst built I've ever seen.

Regards,
Right, I should have said "will last in good playing condition". Often the cheap horns do sound and play great in the first few years, but after a while they begin to sound like annoying clunking machines.
 
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