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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,

I'll try posting this here as no one seems to be watching the R&C forum...

I bought this on Ebay for $42. US Bandmaster, serial 00566, no other useful information other than the case is red inside ( I have not received the sax yet ).

It looks exactly like a Rampone & Cazzani tenor that is also on Ebay as I write. But both look a whole lot like Malerne stencils, too.

Saxpics list a US Bandmaster as a Keilwerth stencil on their stencil list page but this one doesn't look much like a Keilwerth to me.

For $42 I really don't care if it has Mickey Mouse engraved on it but it's got my curiosity up. Any ideas on what's up here?

Cheers to all!

Here's the photo link:

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/8938/usbandmaster.jpg
 

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The bell-to-bow brace is a bit different, too, it looks like. The Dolnet is a diamond shape, and this one looks more (US) football shaped, with a vertical bar in the middle. My understanding is that Dolnet was a manufacturer, and sometimes made stencils for others. Like this: https://www.junkdude.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id_product=598

There was some kind of connection between Malerne and Rampone, as I had a Robert Martel tenor that the Malerne experts clearly believed to be a Malerne stencil, but it was made in Italy, and had identical details to a vintage Rampone & Cazzani. Seemed most likely that it was a Malerne design, made for them by Rampone.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Ah, yeah, I forgot to mention the bell brace. I was looking more specifically at the keywork, which is identical, and the low C# tone-hole placement which is perfectly in line with the B/Bb bell keys. Every Malerne I've ever seen has the C# tucked more inside, between the body and the bell. I'm thinking R&C made the US bandmaster AND the Dolnet Universal line. As I understand it, this was Dolnet's last model because they were just a few years from going out of business. Maybe this was a last-ditch effort to have something to sell and they farmed out the work to R&C while specifying that they wanted the typical Dolnet keyguards and bell-brace so it at least LOOKED like a Dolnet. Dolnet DID have stencils made FOR THEM during this period, the Dolnet Studium ( at least the soprano, I used to own one ) being an example, which was made by B&S and is identical to a Weltklang from the same era. I think Dolnet was in bad shape at this point and was desperately looking for a way to stay in business and was farming out more work than anybody cares to admit.
 

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The Dolnet is absolutely unrelated to the Bandmaster (guards and bell brace are typical Dolnet and that is evident) , which, in my view , is a Rampone and the Malerne elements are there because Rampone copied Malerne at that time.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hi, Milandro, how ya doin'? Yeah, but look at the keywork. Identical right up to the cork behind the octave key and the octave mechanism itself. I'm figuring Dolnet said, " Hey could you guys make us a horn but put OUR keyguards and OUR bell-brace on so everyone will still recognize it as a Dolnet? ". As for the Rampone / Malerne / US Bandmaster connection, yep, I totally agree. But I still tend to think that Rampone made the Universal, too. The ONLY differences between the two are the keyguards and the bell-brace. I'm still waiting for mine to get here so I'll take a REALLY close look at it then. Who knows?
 

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Hi frnkfrkl nice to read your posts, :) I am sorry I really disagree they look very different to me and I can't see any resemblance if not vague elements.
Also this wouldn't be logical art all, Donet had a proper functional factory until the '80 and only bought it models which they couldn't make because they had no tooling, as it was the case with the Curved Soprano which was, in fact, an Orsi - MIlano , they had no need for Rampone to make them an alto and they themselves were stencilling (much rarer) for others
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I don't know, man...Dolnet Studium=Weltklang in the later years. Perhaps we shall agree to disagree!
 

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I think that that soprano was later attributed (from me and others) to Borgani
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Ah. That was the Schenkelaars and you were dead right on that one. I USED to have a Dolnet Studium that was definitely a B&S/Weltklang. It was even marked " made in GDR " AND " fabriqué en RDA " next to the serial number ( english AND french ). I probably still have a few photos of that one in my computer somewhere. I'll have to look in the SOTW archives, I'm sure I saw a thread about Dolnet having had recourse to other manufacturers for stencil work.
 

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Discussion Starter #12

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:) I see similarities AND differences , this one definitely looks like a Malerne, which, mind you, the US Bandmaster could be too........., in this example of a Dolnet unversal, the guards a re very poorly executed and lack the usual bead or pearl and the LH table most definitely is reminding me of an Orsi (to get even more complicated) . To go back to the Bandmaster that one looks definitely a Rampone & Cazzani to me and this attribution can be easily checked with Claudio Zolla at Rampone, his mail address is [email protected] (Rampone & Cazzani)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Hey, Milandro, you and I are going to have to sit down with this over a beer or two. I'm looking more specifically at the key placement and keywork. Looks like the same LH table on both, no? Find me a picture of a Malerne with the C# key in-line with the B/Bb keys and you might sway me. And, yeah, those don't look like "real" Dolnet keyguards on the Universal, which leads me to believe that the Universal is not a "real" Dolnet and is in fact a stencil made for Dolnet ( by R&C, hee hee hee! ). What about the serial number on the Bandmaster? I really think they're the same horn with basically cosmetic differences.

Oh, I did send a mail off to Claudio. A busy man, as I understand, so I'll just have to wait on his response. I'd like to ask him if they ever did stencil work for Dolnet. I'll tell you what. If you're right, I'm buying the beer.
 

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Cheers! :) I am sure that Claudio is the only one who could tell us what is what here. The Italo-French co-operation and competition during the '50 to the '80 has made it a very difficult thing to tell which is which. Anyway the next round is on me :)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Oh, hey, just because I simply cannot let a sleeping dog lie, here's another little wrench in the works. Ladies and gents, this is a Dolnet Universal that is different and yet similar to the Dolnet Universal that I linked to on my previous post. Notice that the LH table is different. Notice that a few of the the rods differ. And, especially, notice that the C# pad is in-line with the B/Bb bell keys BUT they all seem to be sorta scrunched in really close together. Hmm. One might suspect a shorter horn. Could this be one of the dreaded high-pitch later Dolnets that everyone is scared to buy? The ones that aren't even supposed to exist? Notice, also, the Malerne-style RH pinky keys. Very typically non-Dolnet. Notice the cheapo keyguards. It looks to me like Dolnet went slumming at the end and was hanging around with any Tom or Joe that would make a saxophone for them. I don't mean to be murkin' your buzz, Dolnet-heads, but a Dolnet is not always a Dolnet...

The shocking proof:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/8166/anotherscarydolnet41.png
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Ohmygod! What's this! Another Dolnet! Oh, dear, just look at those keyguards! Look at that LH table! Ohmygod! It's the same as the US Bandmaster! NOW do you see similarities? But what about the bell-brace?....Ah. I live in France and you can find Dolnets everywhere, all shapes and forms. I've come to realize that the accepted Dolnet history has a lot of holes in it. Deep, dark mysterious holes into which only the very brave dare venture. I am one of the brave.

Milandro.....I think you're gonna be buying me beer...........hee hee hee!

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/8339/dolnet.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Oh dear. I just realized that the LH table is NOT the same but the keyguards are. That's it. Enough of this. I'm going to bed.
 

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yes I see similarities but I also see differences........
 
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