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Hey guys,

May be buying a used, unlacquered 82Z.

Is the care/maintenance any different from that of a lacquered horn? With my current tenor I'm able to use a soft cloth and rub away any finger prints and condensation marks very quickly. Is it the same deal with unlacquered instruments?

Cheers
 

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My S20 is without lacquer and my maintenance regime is basically non existent.
The patina it develops from normal use and ageing is the point if not having lacquer to me.
You could however gently rub a wax or gentle car polish over it every so often if you’re that way inclined.
Not in an effort to buff it though, more so to give it a coating to slow down the patina if that’s what you want.
 

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There are many threads about the same question. I will post links for your reference

Treating your saxophone with a form of wax (be it natural or artificial) works well. The most important thing is that you start with a clean “ slate” so to speak, a clean saxophone.

A friend of mine has a Dutch brand of saxophone and he came to my place with this completely full of dirt and green spots and even the best cleaners that I have won’t do, it needs to be taken completely apart and wheel buffed at this point.

The shop which assembled the sax SHOULD have treated it with some wax and HE would have had to be advised to do the same at least every week.

Aapply antique wax or carnauba or bee’s wax with a woolen cloth. Rub it clean, ideally every time that you use it.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?147456-Cleaning-an-unlacquered-alto
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?196282-Cleaning-an-Unlacquered-Horn

( there are many more threads , I found 470hits by using the search engine)

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/gtsea...l=www.saxontheweb.net/&ref=&ss=3432j825294j17
 

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There are many threads about the same question. I will post links for your reference

Treating your saxophone with a form of wax (be it natural or artificial) works well. The most important thing is that you start with a clean “ slate” so to speak, a clean saxophone.

A friend of mine has a Dutch brand of saxophone and he came to my place with this completely full of dirt and green spots and even the best cleaners that I have won’t do, it needs to be taken completely apart and wheel buffed at this point.

The shop which assembled the sax SHOULD have treated it with some wax and HE would have had to be advised to do the same at least every week.

Aapply antique wax or carnauba or bee’s wax with a woolen cloth. Rub it clean, ideally every time that you use it.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?147456-Cleaning-an-unlacquered-alto
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?196282-Cleaning-an-Unlacquered-Horn

( there are many more threads , I found 470hits by using the search engine)

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/gtsea...l=www.saxontheweb.net/&ref=&ss=3432j825294j17
It has to be taken apart, yes, but no buffing! Rather, clean it with household 'calcium, lime, rust' remover. If this doesn't exist in Europe, Surely there is a tarnish remover for silver, copper and brass. Use this, rinse and blow-dry the sax and apply water-displacing penetrant to the springs and any other joints or attachments like bell screws, bow clamp screws, pivot screws that were left in, etc. If you have WD-40 you just spray the whole thing and wipe off the excess. You'll probably have to do this every year or two but you normally would do that on a lacquered sax too so its not extra work.
If you cannot do this yourself, have a sax shop take it apart and 'dip' it. You can treat the springs, etc. when you get it back.
 

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There are many threads about the same question. I will post links for your reference

Treating your saxophone with a form of wax (be it natural or artificial) works well. The most important thing is that you start with a clean “ slate” so to speak, a clean saxophone.

A friend of mine has a Dutch brand of saxophone and he came to my place with this completely full of dirt and green spots and even the best cleaners that I have won’t do, it needs to be taken completely apart and wheel buffed at this point.

The shop which assembled the sax SHOULD have treated it with some wax and HE would have had to be advised to do the same at least every week.

Aapply antique wax or carnauba or bee’s wax with a woolen cloth. Rub it clean, ideally every time that you use it.
I’d never let anybody take my sax apart and buff it with anything.
I think its far beyond wax doing any good.
The dark spots are just dark spots. They aren’t rough to the touch or feel like any kind of corrosion.
It’s a testament to the thousands of hours, gigs, miles and experiences and it doesn’t go to many gigs any more.
 

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I have tried on my friend’s horns wd 40 and a number of tarnish removers the stuff that stains it is well and truly “ cooked” won’t come of unless using some very heavy action.

None of this would it have ben necessary if it were protected (and the chosen brass wouldn’t have been so prone to staining )
 

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In my experience no wax product is effective in keeping raw brass from developing a natural patina over time. Only lacquer can do that. I have used Renaissance Wax on several saxes I have removed the lacquer from and given a "brushed" or "satin" finish. It tends to darken the color very slightly and helps to keep fingerprints from showing, but so does a coating of Lemon Pledge. Jax chemical company makes two products that clean and brighten brass and copper: Jax Cleaning Products. The instant cleaner is much stronger than the other. The problem I see using something like this would be getting it on the pads when "brightening" the keycups. I also suspect that it leaves the brass with a more porous surface---especially the instant cleaner.
 

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my suggestion is not toward keeping patina from forming, it is to keep it free from stains and oxidation due to use and to touching, which is a different thing than a patina.
In much the same way people use wax to protect weapons

 

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Hey guys,

May be buying a used, unlacquered 82Z.

Is the care/maintenance any different from that of a lacquered horn? With my current tenor I'm able to use a soft cloth and rub away any finger prints and condensation marks very quickly. Is it the same deal with unlacquered instruments?

Cheers
If finger prints and condensation marks are of concern with your current tenor (enough that this is the only point you brought up here), I'd stay away from unlacquered. Keeping them from developing marks and shapes on the surface will be impossible. At best your tenor will be looking like whaler's on post #7, in a couple years.

If somehow you can change you mindset and not worry about aesthetics, the best you can do to maintain any sax is always make sure there is no humidity left in it before shutting its case closed.
 

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I've had an unlaquered 82z for 4 years. Because it arrived shiny, I used to notice whenever there was a finger mark etc (they don't wipe off), but those marks just disappear into the general patina and I love it. I never really wipe it down or anything, but maybe I should. It looks great to me.
 

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Unprotected brass is at the mercy of the environment, which may contain all manner of corroding vapours, especially traces of hydrogen sulphide and sulphur oxides, ammonia, salt.

If you get lucky in your particular environment then you get a corrosion that is euphemistically called "patina", and yes, some people love it, and possibly even like the characteristic smell! (And that gets on your hands.)

However your particular environment may also corrode the surface to be decidedly unattractive.
Saxophones are lacquered for a reason.
Launch down this unlacquered road with knowledge that the future is unpredictable.
 

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There is no avoiding patina if the horn is used regularly over time. I had this horn chemically stripped about 15 years ago because there was only about 20% lacquer remaining. It was very shiny for a few months. It really became impossible to keep it perfect, even with coatings. I had it overhauled again about 2 years ago. It was ultrasonically cleaned at that time. I wipe it down after playing and periodically clean it up with q-tips between the keys. I also polish the neck just for fun. I did not find that the raw brass changed the sound, it just looks better raw than with terribly worn lacquer to my eye. If you want a shiny horn, get the lacquered version. Modern lacquer wears extremely well compared to the old formulas.

View attachment 238880
View attachment 238882
 

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My unlaquered tenor 82z is more than 10 years old. I do nothing more with it than my laquered alto. I don't even wipe it down. It looks really great with a colorful patina!
 

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My unlaquered tenor 82z is more than 10 years old. I do nothing more with it than my laquered alto. I don't even wipe it down. It looks really great with a colorful patina!
Indeed, I have seen several unlacquered horns in perfect state. This is certainly something that dependfs also oin the type of brass used. I can promise you that the Dutch brand owned by my friend got dirty in an unbelievable way.
 

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More important to maintain inside than outside. Just swap and gently wipe down and leave as is. If the horn needs disassembly, polishing with mild compounds will reduce surface oxidation but IMO not really worth the time or effort.
 

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Unprotected brass is at the mercy of the environment, which may contain all manner of corroding vapours, especially traces of hydrogen sulphide and sulphur oxides, ammonia, salt.

If you get lucky in your particular environment then you get a corrosion that is euphemistically called "patina", and yes, some people love it, and possibly even like the characteristic smell! (And that gets on your hands.)

However your particular environment may also corrode the surface to be decidedly unattractive.
Saxophones are lacquered for a reason.
Launch down this unlacquered road with knowledge that the future is unpredictable.
Bingo!

It’s a fine line between patina and spittoon.

 

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Since this thread seems fairly current; can someone tell me how to get the rust out of the bell, inside my 1929 Silver Buescher TT alto that I just bought? I've already cleaned it up quite a bit; although, there are a few nasty spots of rust inside. I'm thinking that it hadn't been cleaned too often. The cool thing is; I can now see the gold colour inside the bell! I've heard that a light sandpaper with a bit of water would take it off...I'm open to ideas. So far, I've been using baking soda and water.
 

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Bingo!

It’s a fine line between patina and spittoon.

Fair point, but some if not all of the verdigris seen in this picture may be trapped underneath old cellulose-based lacquer. Many of the old horns that seem to be bare brass are not. Also, the deeper parts of the bell would look just as bad with pristine (exterior) lacquer if the owner never bothered swapping the sax.

Many years ago, I purchased a Radio Improved tenor that looked just like this at a pretty good price. All it took was some cotton swaps wetted with water to remove the old lacquer along with verdigris and nicely looking brass was exposed underneath. I was planning to have it overhauled but gave up as the bell notes were hopelessly sharp.

Some people never clean their horns. With a bare brass horn, it will be obvious how it was cared for, which is not all bad.
 
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