[Brujo]

Fortune has smiled. There are now two beautiful Ladies living with me. One is a 1959 era 10M. The other is older, circa 1934 tenor with split bell keys and no 10M marking but having the Ladyface engraving we all know and love so well.

Problem is, financial wisdom says that at most one of them should become permanently resident under my roof. I beseech the collective wisdom of this august assembly to help me select my resident paramour. Please share your knowledge and experience to help guide my decision.

Play testing is not an option. Both are in very good condition but have been closeted for too long and will require investment to become playable. Cosmetics are similar, and up in the top 90+ bracket. Fortune smiled very broadly. So decision needs to be on innate characteristics, an early transitional vs a very late non-RTH 10M. Obviously there will be differences in keywork, one is split bell the other isn’t, duh. But how much of a difference will that and other factors make, in sound and in ergonomics? Especially in sound, after all that’s why we play.

That’s the big question, is there a significant difference in sound to be expected, all else being equal? All else being equal the expected sound would be my primary, perhaps sole, decision factor. Of course all else is never equal, so the other question is how much difference would there be in market appeal? I know that a mid to late 1940s RTH 10M would be significantly more desirable that that 1959 non-RTH, but how does the 1934 split bell key transitional horn stack up? (omg as I typed that autocorrect just changed “horn” to “hotness”, reading my mind lulz). So is that tranny going to represent hotness, or is it just an outdated old NW2 design needing more of a facelift than just a pretty Ladyface engraving?

And most importantly, how would that appeal translate into market value? For each of them what price would be fair market value? Assume that a routine COA will be required to put the horn into condition to be played, but no major repairs, overhaul etc are imperative. I know that conventional wisdom says don’t invest in a horn to sell it, but would this be an exception? Would it be a good idea to put the horn I’m going to sell into playable condition just so it can be sold as playable? How much difference in selling price would there be between knowing it’s playable or needing work to be playable?

I know those are lots of questions. I thank you for your patience reading this, and your generosity sharing your insights.

So, which Lady would you favor? Why?

 

[datsaxman]

I would keep the 10m and move the NW.

Because 10m.

 

[Teodoro]

I think you may get just as many votes for one as for the other. Myself, I played a 10M for decades, and never a New Wonder II. But in alto I have played both, and the NW II, and the transitionals that came a little after had a great sound. Some people complain about the intonation, and i suspect that these hand made horns are a bit different from each other in intonation. But I have two NW II altos, both are powerful, beautiful sounding horns. The ergonomics are very familiar to me and not hard to get used to. And the intonation is the player's job - and they are easy to adjust to. I love the NW IIs, perhaps better than the more famous 6M (again, alto). So that is my vote.

 

[mrpeebee]

I've play-tested a few 10m's and had one NW II transitional for a few weeks on test some years ago.

I loved the big and gritty sound of the NW II transitional a lot, but I didn't like the ergonomics and it also had some intonation issues. If it wasn't for the ergonomics and the fact that it feels and plays much different compared to by 1953 Selmer SBA tenor I would have bought it as my backup tenor.

None of the 10m's I did play-test (from different area's, 30's to 60's) could come into the shade of the above NW II transitional for sound. But the 10m's had better ergonomics and a bit more smooth sound.

That being said, it all depends on how your horns will be set up and on what kind of sound and feel you prefer. You're the only one who can answer that question.

I'm not a specialist in Conn tenor values, you might want to compare the sales statistics on eBay.

I would go for the NW II transitional, if you can handle the ergonomics and like a big gritty sound.

 

[Brujo]

I would keep the 10m and move the NW.

Because 10m.

If only the 10M serial number was from the rolled tone hole era instead of indicating a 1959-1960 build date that call would seem a lot clearer.

Thanks for the reply, it matched my first gut reaction. Then I started thinking, well the other one is a Chu Berry with the Ladyface engraving. Nothing to sneeze at there either. Hence my cry for help.

Thanks again.

 

[Brujo]

I think you may get just as many votes for one as for the other. Myself, I played a 10M for decades, and never a New Wonder II. But in alto I have played both, and the NW II, and the transitionals that came a little after had a great sound. Some people complain about the intonation, and i suspect that these hand made horns are a bit different from each other in intonation. But I have two NW II altos, both are powerful, beautiful sounding horns. The ergonomics are very familiar to me and not hard to get used to. And the intonation is the player's job - and they are easy to adjust to. I love the NW IIs, perhaps better than the more famous 6M (again, alto). So that is my vote.

Very helpful, thanks. Especially the observations of your suspicions that there's more variation in the earlier horns. That makes sense. Doesn't clarify the decision but makes me think maybe I should invest in that one and see how I like it before making a decision. Thankfully I'm still working and not under financial pressure so I've got the chance to explore the options.

Thanks again!

 

[JayeLID]

welll....

If only the 10M serial number was from the rolled tone hole era instead of indicating a 1959-1960 build date that call would seem a lot clearer.

Exactly. A '59 10M isn't a particularly 'rare' horn. I understand it is in really good shape, but market-wise, lack of RTH makes it not very valuable, relatively speaking.

One CAN find a '50's 10M pretty easily, actually. And I believe the late 50's were nickel keys ? Double socket neck ? People don't really want those. Matter of fact, next to the slightly later underslung variety, a late 50's 10M is the second least desireable 10M. If people want a 10M and CANNOT lasso an RTH one, they at least want a lacquer-keyed one with conventional neck socket.

Just telling you this from a market perspective.

If you sold the Splitbell, you'd be selling a horn which is really sought after, not seen very often; and keeping a relatively common model, of only moderate value, and fairly regularly available on the market.

KEEP the splitbell Lady. Fix her up, enjoy.

Personally....while the ergos on the splitbell and the 10m are a bit different....I gotta say, 10M ergos are not "good". Period. Everyone knows this. We gotta admit this, eh ?

So IMHO, the tranny/NW ergos are no 'worse'. Woodshed with the horn a week or two and you get everything under your fingers just fine. Some very good pros play Conns of this era.

It is interesting how Mr. P describes the splitbell II tone as 'gritty', actually.

In my experience, the splitbells are lusher, smoother-toned, a tad darker than the 10M's, which (comparitively speaking) are edgier, a bit less 'pretty', and a bit more aggressive-toned.

 

[Guto]

I vote for keeping the split bell too! As JayeLID said it won't be easy to find another one should you ever regret selling it.

I have an art-deco split-bell tranny, the 10M and the 30M. love them all playing-wise. comparable ergonomics. only downside I experienced on the tranny was the wider gap between the Bis and B keys. but Oleg sells a key extension that resolves it.

 

[Grumps]

KEEP the splitbell Lady.

If you don't know how they play, that would be my advice too. If you have to put money into these horns, the split bell would be the better investment as per Jaye's observations. The split bell might also be free of the dreaded low D quirk that players can have with 10M saxophones.

 

[Brujo]

I vote for keeping the split bell too! As JayeLID said it won't be easy to find another one should you ever regret selling it.

I have an art-deco split-bell tranny, the 10M and the 30M. love them all playing-wise. comparable ergonomics. only downside I experienced on the tranny was the wider gap between the Bis and B keys. but Oleg sells a key extension that resolves it.

Very helpful comments. Especially appreciate you're speaking from owning both the split bell and 10M. That makes your observation regarding ergonomics very well informed and valuable from my perspective.

 

[Brujo]

Thanks! The market commentary matches my intuitive expectations, but I am careful about projecting when I don't really have any basis for it.

And the comment about ergos is very helpful too. I expect I'll adjust to whatever I'm living with but a good starting point would be helpful. Knowing there's no significant advantage definitely helps me a lot.

welll....

Exactly. A '59 10M isn't a particularly 'rare' horn. I understand it is in really good shape, but market-wise, lack of RTH makes it not very valuable, relatively speaking.

One CAN find a '50's 10M pretty easily, actually. And I believe the late 50's were nickel keys ? Double socket neck ? People don't really want those. Matter of fact, next to the slightly later underslung variety, a late 50's 10M is the second least desireable 10M. If people want a 10M and CANNOT lasso an RTH one, they at least want a lacquer-keyed one with conventional neck socket.

Just telling you this from a market perspective.

If you sold the Splitbell, you'd be selling a horn which is really sought after, not seen very often; and keeping a relatively common model, of only moderate value, and fairly regularly available on the market.

KEEP the splitbell Lady. Fix her up, enjoy.

Personally....while the ergos on the splitbell and the 10m are a bit different....I gotta say, 10M ergos are not "good". Period. Everyone knows this. We gotta admit this, eh ?

So IMHO, the tranny/NW ergos are no 'worse'. Woodshed with the horn a week or two and you get everything under your fingers just fine. Some very good pros play Conns of this era.

It is interesting how Mr. P describes the splitbell II tone as 'gritty', actually.

In my experience, the splitbells are lusher, smoother-toned, a tad darker than the 10M's, which (comparitively speaking) are edgier, a bit less 'pretty', and a bit more aggressive-toned.

 

[Brujo]

If you don't know how they play, that would be my advice too. If you have to put money into these horns, the split bell would be the better investment as per Jaye's observations. The split bell might also be free of the dreaded low D quirk that players can have with 10M saxophones.

Thanks. I was inclined that way to start, for a very intangible reason: history. I picked the split bell up at a small country auction, and after the sale chatting with the auctioneer I was told it was consigned as part of a living estate sale for a woman in her eighties or nineties who said it had been her father's, and that he was a professional musician in NYC in the 1920s and 1930s. Can't say that's enough to conclude I'm the second owner but it does say it was probably a very good horn whenever he bought it. Most interesting thing is the carrying case, looks like it was homemade or perhaps recovered by an amateur. Definitely has some funk. See the pic.

 

[Dr G]

Another vote in favor of keeping the split-bell and liberating the 10M.

 

[Sacks Of Phones]

welll....

Exactly. A '59 10M isn't a particularly 'rare' horn. I understand it is in really good shape, but market-wise, lack of RTH makes it not very valuable, relatively speaking.

One CAN find a '50's 10M pretty easily, actually. And I believe the late 50's were nickel keys ? Double socket neck ? People don't really want those. Matter of fact, next to the slightly later underslung variety, a late 50's 10M is the second least desireable 10M. If people want a 10M and CANNOT lasso an RTH one, they at least want a lacquer-keyed one with conventional neck socket.

Just telling you this from a market perspective.

If you sold the Splitbell, you'd be selling a horn which is really sought after, not seen very often; and keeping a relatively common model, of only moderate value, and fairly regularly available on the market.

KEEP the splitbell Lady. Fix her up, enjoy.

Personally....while the ergos on the splitbell and the 10m are a bit different....I gotta say, 10M ergos are not "good". Period. Everyone knows this. We gotta admit this, eh ?

So IMHO, the tranny/NW ergos are no 'worse'. Woodshed with the horn a week or two and you get everything under your fingers just fine. Some very good pros play Conns of this era.

It is interesting how Mr. P describes the splitbell II tone as 'gritty', actually.

In my experience, the splitbells are lusher, smoother-toned, a tad darker than the 10M's, which (comparitively speaking) are edgier, a bit less 'pretty', and a bit more aggressive-toned.

What he said.......

 

[J-Moen]

Thanks. I was inclined that way to start, for a very intangible reason: history. I picked the split bell up at a small country auction, and after the sale chatting with the auctioneer I was told it was consigned as part of a living estate sale for a woman in her eighties or nineties who said it had been her father's, and that he was a professional musician in NYC in the 1920s and 1930s. Can't say that's enough to conclude I'm the second owner but it does say it was probably a very good horn whenever he bought it. Most interesting thing is the carrying case, looks like it was homemade or perhaps recovered by an amateur. Definitely has some funk. See the pic.
View attachment 261968

whoa, is that the new anti gravity case that goes on the ceiling?

 

[Sofiane]

Would definetely keep the transitional without hesitation.
Have fun

 

[Brujo]

whoa, is that the new anti gravity case that goes on the ceiling?

iOS does something strange. Usually it's been rotating photos 90degrees when I post them on another forum, this is the first time I've seen flipped 180. Thought about fixing it but figured it shows the case covering perfectly well.

 

[J-Moen]

iOS does something strange. Usually it's been rotating photos 90degrees when I post them on another forum, this is the first time I've seen flipped 180. Thought about fixing it but figured it shows the case covering perfectly well.

Lol yeah, I have noticed the forum doing strange rotations. This was a first though - thought it was funny :lol:

 

[JayeLID]

Thanks. I was inclined that way to start, for a very intangible reason: history. I picked the split bell up at a small country auction, and after the sale chatting with the auctioneer I was told it was consigned as part of a living estate sale for a woman in her eighties or nineties who said it had been her father's, and that he was a professional musician in NYC in the 1920s and 1930s. Can't say that's enough to conclude I'm the second owner but it does say it was probably a very good horn whenever he bought it. Most interesting thing is the carrying case, looks like it was homemade or perhaps recovered by an amateur. Definitely has some funk. See the pic.
View attachment 261968

I know this wouldn't be likely...but...that's a cool story and I am wondering if you can ask the auctioneers whether it'd be possible for them to give the previous owner your contact information; just because it'd be neat to get more info on the horn and former owner.

I realize auction houses have rules about this sorta thing... so they might just say 'no go', but it's always neat to get as much info on a vintage horn as possible, IF possible....

 

[Brujo]

I'm convinced, it was easy because the overwhelming response was recommending what I'd been inclined towards already.

Now in light of Jaye's comments about the general market interest in the 1959-60 10M I'm wondering what expectation I should have about a reasonable selling price for it. I'm not worried about a quick sale but also don't want to pass up a god offer and then find myself sitting on it for a long time. I think the lacquer is in good shape, overall seems to be in good condition but definitely needs some work to play well. I'll try to get some pics up tomorrow if that will help, for now I'd really just like to calibrate what a late '50s non RTH 10M is likely to bring.

Thanks!

welll....

Exactly. A '59 10M isn't a particularly 'rare' horn. I understand it is in really good shape, but market-wise, lack of RTH makes it not very valuable, relatively speaking.

One CAN find a '50's 10M pretty easily, actually. And I believe the late 50's were nickel keys ? Double socket neck ? People don't really want those. Matter of fact, next to the slightly later underslung variety, a late 50's 10M is the second least desireable 10M. If people want a 10M and CANNOT lasso an RTH one, they at least want a lacquer-keyed one with conventional neck socket.

Just telling you this from a market perspective.

If you sold the Splitbell, you'd be selling a horn which is really sought after, not seen very often; and keeping a relatively common model, of only moderate value, and fairly regularly available on the market.

KEEP the splitbell Lady. Fix her up, enjoy.

Personally....while the ergos on the splitbell and the 10m are a bit different....I gotta say, 10M ergos are not "good". Period. Everyone knows this. We gotta admit this, eh ?

So IMHO, the tranny/NW ergos are no 'worse'. Woodshed with the horn a week or two and you get everything under your fingers just fine. Some very good pros play Conns of this era.

It is interesting how Mr. P describes the splitbell II tone as 'gritty', actually.

In my experience, the splitbells are lusher, smoother-toned, a tad darker than the 10M's, which (comparitively speaking) are edgier, a bit less 'pretty', and a bit more aggressive-toned.