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· Forum Contributor 2015, seeker of the knowing of t
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........ so now I'm scared.

Trying out with a local soul/blues band next Friday. Spent a half an hour on the phone with the bass guitarist and did explain I'm no hotshot and was very clear about what I could and could'nt do. They are all a little older than me (late 40's), He seemed quite patient and happy to work through their songs with me. He explained they just wanted backing lines and little solos here and there.

He gave me two songs they play to look at - Leave your hat on by Joe Cocker and Wrap it up by The Fabulous Thunderbirds.

I've got the midis for both, leave your hat on doesn't look to bad, but the Thunderbirds track is waaaaaaay faster tempo than I can usually play. They just want me to play along with the guitarist on that one but its pretty quick, to make matters worse it's in Ab which I don't know.

Probably a hard question to answer, but when you go along to these sorts of sessions, what's generally expected? How long before they write you off and ask you politely to put your horn away and go home?
 

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It's best to be prepared to play what they've told you about, of course, but the second best thing is to go in with some tunes you are comfortable with and a positive attitude.

The tunes show that you can indeed play. The attitude says you are willing and able to learn whatever they need.

Don't talk yourself out of the gig by telling them how lame you think you are. Don't ever apologize for your playing. You are the answer to their prayers, the solution to their problem.

Then, when you get the gig, work your butt off and deliver on your promise.
 

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You mention you are concerned about playing "Wrap It Up" in the key of Ab, and that you don't know that key. Are you sure that Ab would be your key, as opposed to concert key? If Ab were your key, then they would be playing in Concert Gb (if Ab is the key for your tenor) or in Concert B (if Ab is the key for your alto). But if Ab is the concert key, and you are doing this on tenor, then Bb would be your key. You might want to verify this with the bass player.

Whatever key it ends up being on your sax, you might want to do some 'shedding on arpeggios and scales that are appropriate to that key.

Another thing you could do is try to find a version of this tune on iTunes that is in the proper key, and play along with that recording. If you can't find a version in the proper key, you could use a PC tool such as Audacity (on Windows, and I am guessing there are similar tools for MAC) to translate the pitch of the song (without changing its tempo) to the desired key.

By the way, if I am auditioning a new band member, the 4 things I am looking for are (1) basic chops on the instrument, (2) desire to prepare/work (3) ability to listen and work with others, and (4) chemistry with the band. You can't control #4. But your practicing and prep this week will show for numbers #1 and #2, and you can show #3 at the rehearsal/audition.

Break a leg!
 

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Connected to this thread, I went to the rehearsal of this newly-forming fusion band last week (our concert band conductor put me onto it). They were friendly guys (keys, drums, bass, lead electric guitar), though the leader (keyboardist) was a little detached.

The village hall they practise in is about 35 - 40 minutes drive, in the middle of nowhere, no street lighting and would be a pig to get to in winter.

Anyway, as I predicted, these guys played from knowledge of chords and all by ear, as most outfits do (they are not readers - the keys can read a bit) and of course, all in concert pitch. They started with Chicago Song and gave me the Aebersold sheet - which isn't the same length as the recording (oh, this band likes things to be just like the record) but at least available in Eb. I actually used the handwritten transposition I did myself from a concert pitch transcription of the recording I found online. They put me on a mic - though I never mic my sax and indeed, even with their amplified instruments, it wasn't really necessary IMO, I was plenty audible.
I played the sax part okay, after all, it's the same thing over and over but when it came to my 32 bar solo, I of course couldn't play exactly like the Sanborn funk thing, so just did my own far-out thing. I just can't count bars whilst improvising, no matter how I try. So I did what I could, the number of run throughs we had.

That said, I have been improvising okay when soloing in concert band if we play something like Rock Around the Clock and on Saturday, I launched into an improv on a pop tune and I went to that place someone like Sonny has reported he goes to when playing, when you're into something else but snapped back to the tune when the backing track needed it.

Put It Where You Want It, they gave me the fake book of it - concert pitch - so I scribbled the transposition out of part of the tune (from my handy ready reckoner) but having never played it before, I didn't do much and they didn't stick to the overall geography of the fake book and I sat out on the soloing.

Then they tried a tune without a title by the keyboardist. The 'sheet music' was just a list of the chord names, the bass note names and a list of when Intro/Verse/Chorus came in - again in concert pitch - and one was expected to play the tune, when it wasn't demonstrated. I got him to demo his themes but it's not easy to pick out a tune you've never heard before (though I've played my own tunes invented on-the-spot and transcribed many times).

The bassist - who also wasn't playing all the lines - had to go, so without him, they ran through Pick Up The Pieces - I handled the repetetive (and boring!) riffs okay but again, the solo parts got me.

I'd explained on the phone that sheet music is my crutch, even though I can readily play many tunes without music, I often have it in front of me (when playing to backing tracks) and of course in concert band (and big bands, for instance), sheet music is de rigeur. I explained this again. I had been playing, when warming up, St. Thomas - of course by ear - so they keyboardist found the tune in his fake book, to play along (the shoe was on the other foot now!). Of course, it was a different key to the one I play it in, so I about got it right. I asked the drummer (who usually plays thrash metal) to give me a calypso and he didn't know what it was.

I then asked for a swing rhythm (having to explain 'ten-to-ten') and I played just with drums on East of the Sun, in my semi-Bird style.

I may have been playing sax for over twelve years - and playing music since the seventies - and teaching it for over four (where I stress my students should learn all their scales, arpeggios and play without music when memorised!) but I know I will never be able to make that intuitive leap to the state needed for a band like this, no matter how hard I shed. I cannot recall all scales, modes, chords nor able to transpose on-the-spot, especially when playing without music or counting bars when improvising. My brain is just not hard wired for it, full stop. People love my playing, I won a busking festival in the summer (as posted before), so shouldn't that be good enough?

I phoned the guy the night after and said I just couldn't cut it (they loved my tone etc. and I must stress they were not unkind at all about my soloing problems, quite the opposite in fact) and resign myself to playing solo to backing tracks for the rest of my natural and with concert band. I'm playing solo gigs and teaching every other night anyhow, so I'll have my Wednesdays back!
 

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BTW - Wrap it us was recorded in concert Ab. If there's an issue with speed, ask to count it off yourself, and choose a tempo that works for you.

I play that song in a group, and we play it in concert Bb....but if this is your first time working with a R&B/rock band...be prepared to be playing a lot of concert E, A, and B. The first time I played with a rock group I almost had a heart attack...it was way outside my comfort zone, but a few rehearsals later and many hours practicing and now if feels good.

Good luck and play with confidence...even if you think you are sticking it up - they may think you are playing your rear off...you never know.
 

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Not to derail this thread - there are a few versions out there of wrap it up. I think Sam and Dave did the original...not sure though. Either way, there is a very popular version out there in Ab - I know this for sure as I wrote out the horn parts from that copy. And, there probably is a version in Bb out there, it just sounds like its not the version his band is using.

It's really a moot point, as this guy is nervous over an audition coming up, and here we are moaning away at which key a tune is in.

At the end of the day, learn the heck out of the song in the key the band wants you to play it in...and for this particular song...Bb in the tenor voice will sound good, and feel good with a little practice...

And to answer your first question - any decent band will let you play through a few tunes before they tell you they have heard enough, and will get back to you later if they have no interest.

Good Luck!!
 

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eg Fabulous Thunderbirds "Wrap it Up" in concert A. youtube.

ref:

Sounds like the kind of thing that could be done in a ton of different keys.
 

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I would say the first thing to do is get comfortable playing in Ab concert (Bb on the tenor) and every other key, really. You may not play in some keys very often but it will happen and you need to be prepared for it.

Saxplayer67, I think you may have missed an opportunity. Of course only you can decide what you really want to do or put up with. But I think you'd be surprised how quickly you can catch on to playing in the sort of band you were auditioning for. Playing and learning backup lines and riffs, as well as simple head arrangements without the written music is actually easier than you might think. It just takes some time and experience, which it sounds like these guys were willing to extent to you. The transposing part is a non-issue when you aren't reading the music. You simply think and play in your own key. For example, when the band is playing in Bb, you play in C. The V chord for you is G7 (for the piano or guitar it will be F7, of course). The point is, you aren't transposing on the spot. You aren't thinking "F7 chord, but for me it's G7." Instead you are just playing G7.

Anyway, my point is nothing happens automatically. You have to get out and play in a certain setting for a while before it becomes comfortable. I'm kind of in the opposite place to saxplayer67. I have no problem playing in a blues/funk band without written charts or anything, but I'd be a bit nervous sitting down in a big band with charts, simply because I haven't done that since high school (a long, long time ago!).
 

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JL said:
Saxplayer67, I think you may have missed an opportunity. Of course only you can decide what you really want to do or put up with. But I think you'd be surprised how quickly you can catch on to playing in the sort of band you were auditioning for. Playing and learning backup lines and riffs, as well as simple head arrangements without the written music is actually easier than you might think. It just takes some time and experience, which it sounds like these guys were willing to extent to you. The transposing part is a non-issue when you aren't reading the music. You simply think and play in your own key. For example, when the band is playing in Bb, you play in C. The V chord for you is G7 (for the piano or guitar it will be F7, of course). The point is, you aren't transposing on the spot. You aren't thinking "F7 chord, but for me it's G7." Instead you are just playing G7.

Anyway, my point is nothing happens automatically. You have to get out and play in a certain setting for a while before it becomes comfortable. I'm kind of in the opposite place to saxplayer67. I have no problem playing in a blues/funk band without written charts or anything, but I'd be a bit nervous sitting down in a big band with charts, simply because I haven't done that since high school (a long, long time ago!).
Thanks for the observations but a wise man knows when to quit and I just was not comfortable - I can play the sax and very well but thinking in terms of chords whether in concert or Eb alto doesn't work for me - it hasn't happened in twelve years, it's not gonna happen.

These guys wanted a working band asap and I'd never manage it for them. Better for me to save face and be the one to say 'no', not for them to say 'thanks but no thanks' to me.

Anyway, I phoned my old teacher (I had lessons back in 1995 - 96) and gave him their number, in case any of his students were interested and able to give them what they want. The other issue was the distance and location for me - if I'd have managed the solos perfectly, then I'd have made the extreme effort to get there. As it is, the practise day was my only night free, I'm teaching or playing the other nights.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hi All

Firstly, thanks for all the responses. Just to clarify, I downloaded a couple of midi's and imported them into notation musician and they all seemed to be in concert Gb, which is where I got the Ab (I play Tenor mainly) from

The opening concert chords (might have been notes I'm not sure now) he gave me were Bb,Eb,Ab,Eb,Db,Eb then he mumbled something about a Bbm chord "later" I will catch up with him this week and get his sheets

My chord theory is something I am working on with my teacher so I'm not able to make too much sense of the the relationship of his opening notes and the corresponding key.

They definitely want someone to play their tunes so I don't think I will be able to take my own, I don't really care what I play as long as I can get to play with others.



Once again thanks for your thoughts and insights

Cheers
 

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sounds like it's in concert Bb to me which means you can riff your c blues scale all day long. When you listen to wrap it up it during the verses you can hit with the guitar on the AND OF 2. Don't play same note as him which would be your Eb. instead play like a G. During the chorus you could just double the tag line.
 

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SaxPunter said:
The opening concert chords (might have been notes I'm not sure now) he gave me were Bb,Eb,Ab,Eb,Db,Eb then he mumbled something about a Bbm chord "later" I will catch up with him this week and get his sheets
As playitfunky says, it could be in concert Bb. If so, you can analyze those changes like this: I, IV, bVII, IV, bIII, IV. Hard to know the "quality" of each chord (maj, min, dom) for sure without more info. OTOH, if it's concert Gb, then you have III, VI, II, VI, V, VI, which makes a bit more sense, maybe. Both progressions are a little weird......

In any case you need to know the key (the tonic center). Once you know that, for transposing purposes it's best to put the chords into Roman numerals, then you can "see" the chord movement and also transpose easily to your own key on the sax.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks John, Funky

I do need to get my head around the roman numeral thing, I can work some of that out with pen and paper but a long way from doing it on the fly I think. I will definitely grab his sheets, then change the midi to the key they play in and see how I go at home first.... I can alway fake an illness on the day!
 
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