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Hey, gang. Working on my 82xxx C mel. What’s up with these pads. These are not snap on, right? Are these pre snap on, or is something else going on here?
 

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According to saxpics.com the snap on pads started around 1921 the year they were patented. The Buescher serial number chart puts the serial number 78,525 at the start of 1921 so your model is very close to the period the snap on's started. The only way to tell for sure is to remove a pad and see if there is evidence a "spud" was soldered in the center of the key cup. Someone may have removed the spuds and put regular pads in the sax you have, or perhaps it came out just before they put those in their C-mel models.
 

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Those look like plain old rivets (only) to me. Too small and too consistent to be snap ons. I assume this is a Buescher horn (otherwise this is a moot point)?
If you like the sound/volume of the horn you can still get pads with just rivets in them.

If you want a little more volume, I recommend installing flat metal resonators. Don't go with anything domed or you will screw up your intonation.
 

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The sure way to tell if it had snaps originally is to head one of the cups and remove the pad and shellac. If you can see evidence of where the spud (mount) for the snap was, then they were removed. I agree with the above posts stating that it was too close to the time they changed to snaps. I would repad with flat metal reso pads. If you are paying someone, remember that a repad will probably cost more than the value of the horn. I would chose a later model.
 

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yes, and that is the reason why , as Bruce correctly warns OP, there are now more and more horns that aren’t being overhauled on account of the fact that they will never be worth their buying price + the overhaul costs.
Of course there are people who are not concerned by economics, like those whom restore a family heirloom or the people who do this by themselves.

Yes, these are pre, snap on, riveted pads.

They can still be bought in three colors

https://www.prestiniusa.com/store/product/ksi-290-sax-pads-rivet-only-16-0-to-70-0-mm/
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks guys. I'm having fun working on this one myself. I'll remove some pads to see underneath as soon as I can get to it.
 

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Why would domed resos screw up the intonation, considering that the Buescher snap ons were domed?
I did the math once to calculate the change in the volume of closed tone holes with slightly domed resonators compared to flat ones, and the difference is negligible. You can probably make more difference by using a bit of extra pressure when closing a key making a deeper imprint in the pad surface.
 

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I did the math once to calculate the change in the volume of closed tone holes with slightly domed resonators compared to flat ones, and the difference is negligible. You can probably make more difference by using a bit of extra pressure when closing a key making a deeper imprint in the pad surface.
Agreed. I think that the "domed resonator affecting intonation" is a myth with no basis in reality. Some people look at the difference between flat and domed and therefore they can hear the difference between flat and domed. There are 50 other changes made during a repad, but since they aren't visibly obvious, they claim that it was the dome that made the improvement (or non-improvement).

Milandro points out that the small center-rivet pads are still available in three colors. Maybe somebody can start a new myth regarding the sound difference between the colors.

All that being said, I found that large resonators and hard pads made my True Tone CMel sound less like a duck call.

Mark
 

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yes, and that is the reason why , as Bruce correctly warns OP, there are now more and more horns that aren’t being overhauled on account of the fact that they will never be worth their buying price + the overhaul costs.
About every six months, using actual sale data from Ebay, I point out C melodies in rebuildable condition retail around $150. Freshly overhauled C melodies in great condition retail around $650. There is scatter, but these are the averages. Again, just because someone doesn't want a C melody, and claims they wouldn't pay those prices, doesn't mean there isn't a market. I think the myth perpetuates, because the number of buyers is small. In the end, the only folks who matter to market value, are buyers.
 

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I did the math once to calculate the change in the volume of closed tone holes with slightly domed resonators compared to flat ones, and the difference is negligible. You can probably make more difference by using a bit of extra pressure when closing a key making a deeper imprint in the pad surface.
Different horns will react differently I'm sure - but I made the mistake once of repadding a Martin Handcraft bari with domed resonators and it threw the intonation on the upper stack and palm keys out noticeably. Replacing the resonators in the upper stack and palm keys with flat resonators corrected the problem immediately.

Rely on math over personal experience at your peril. A number you've determined to be 'negligible' on paper may seem small - but when you're a bari player playing a horn you know well - the difference can be significant.
 

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on the other hand I repadded my super 20 with flat reflectors after it had domed reflectors so I thought of compensating the height (lowering it for flat as opposed to domed) and discovered that there was no need for it, it only made my horn speak less loudly, after that it was brought to the same height it had before regaining volume and with no effects (either way) on the intonation.
 

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Different horns will react differently I'm sure - but I made the mistake once of repadding a Martin Handcraft bari with domed resonators and it threw the intonation on the upper stack and palm keys out noticeably. Replacing the resonators in the upper stack and palm keys with flat resonators corrected the problem immediately.

Rely on math over personal experience at your peril. A number you've determined to be 'negligible' on paper may seem small - but when you're a bari player playing a horn you know well - the difference can be significant.
Interesting. Any effect upon intonation a curved reso would have would be to reduce the volume inside each closed tonehole which would have the same effect as reducing the height of the "chimney" of the tonehole. On an open tonehole there would be no effect whatsoever. Each closed tonehole according to Benade enlarges and lengthens the air column and the effect is cumulative. In theory, at least, curved resos would enlarge and lessen the diameter of the air column less than flat resos, everything else being equal. To be a valid test, the intonation of several saxophones would need to be measured and charted with both styles of resos and then averaged to come up with any solid conclusion. What you have suggested may have implications for fine tuning a saxophone by using resos that are both convex, flat, and concave in different registers.
 

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To be a valid test, the intonation of several saxophones would need to be measured and charted with both styles of resos and then averaged to come up with any solid conclusion. What you have suggested may have implications for fine tuning a saxophone by using resos that are both convex, flat, and concave in different registers.
Interesting thoughts. Would be a ton of work - but the results would be interesting. I wonder if we would find that vintage horns (where the intonation is more up to the user) are more sensitive than modern horns where the intonation tends to 'lock' in better? Probably innumerable variables. Experimenting on one horn (by accident) was enough for me. lol

I haven't run into trouble like that since - but now I also stick with a shape that was similar to the original design of the horn. I'm not looking for extra work (that's just me).
 

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again, my 1970 Super 20 didn’t have any influence whatsoever on intonation changing from dome resonators to flat ones
 
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