[KEN K]

I have a Selmer Paris e-flatcontrabass clarinet that plays great. My problem is having the right music.

I play Bass clarinet most of the time and play the contra when I have music. Trying to transpose and play at the same time takes the fun out of playing.If we have 40 pieces of music I might have 6 or 7 that are for e-flat contra and some times we don't rehearse those pieces at all. I paid $250 for a selmer mouthpiece that really sounds great

I get tired of bringing 2 instruments to rehearsals.

I would to love get a b-flat contrabass then I could just read Bass Clarinet parts. They are too expensive to buy just to play in a community band. I am still looking.

 

[SOTSDO]

Ken, you need to learn the Eb to Bb transposition trick, and all of that anxiety will vanish.

To make the shift, you play Bb parts like you are doing them in the upper registers, only without the register key applied. Alternatively, you can play them like they are in the lower register, only with the register key applied.

Confused? Try this approach:

To play a written C in an Eb part, play it like the C at the start of the clarinet register, only without the register key applied. Your written C in Eb shifts to a F on your Bb horn. Pretty slick, and probably not thought of at all by Klose when he applied the Boehm system to the clarinet.

You have to learn the "break" by experience, but it becomes second nature after a while. To start, your open G is equal to your altissimo D (after your first finger F# is equal to your altissimo C#), and so on up the scale.

These days, I use it mostly to add bass clarinet lines to pop stuff where the arranger assumes that alto and tenor players would have clarinets, but writes a light line in the baritone part due to the mistaken impression that baritone players can't play clarinet.

To date, I've only seen this trick written up in one reference work, that being the Stubbins book on the clarinet. Incidentally, that book has an excellent guide to transposition from all keys buried in the back - it's well worth seeking out for that section alone.

 

[Gandalfe]

William Stubbins? I've not found his books available yet. You can see an example at Amazon here. Have you documented this transposition method on the Clarinet BBoard. It truly gives me hope that I can do it on the fly someday. I discovered the Eb to Bb transformation while working with my grandson with him on sax and I on clarinet.

 

[SOTSDO]

I got the book on loan from the Peoria City Main Library (where I also found an English language version of Oskar Kroll's book), and have not seen it anywhere else since. THe last time that I had my hands on it was some time in the early 1980's.

As for being able to do it, once you apply yourself to it for a few hours, it becomes second nature. When I shift to working the transposition to an Eb part (or using a Eb instrument to play a Bb line), it takes a little more thought than just sitting down and playing a straight part. However, other than the break, it soon becomes second nature.

Try to start with parts that don't work through the break too much, then all you have to do is to lift or depress your thumb (as appropriate). I can manage most anything that reaches into the break but still have to think hard about one that goes through the break.

It works the same way on an Eb clarinet when playing Bb sax parts, by the way. However, that method isn't nearly as useful as the Eb baritone to the Bb bass clarinet route.

As for the clarinet board, I still review what I see posted there, but I no longer contribute, having offended someone with my opinion on a musical question. I think that there are others there who have come to the same realization as you and I have, independent of anything that Mr. Stubbins may have written up in the Fifties or the Sixties.

incidentally, I got the impression from reading his book that he had a bit of a chip on his shoulder. Since he came up with his own "system" of clarinet (the Stubbins) that wasn't a resounding success (the same as virtually every other attempt to improve the Klose-Boehm horn), that might account for the "attitude".

 

[Clarinetdude108]

SOTSDO, thank you! that is one of the best tips ive learned on here so far

 

[Gandalfe]

SOTSDO, thank you! that is one of the best tips ive learned on here so far

I've talked two principal clarinetists and this after some people in the pit orchestra I'm playing with. No one knew this! I'll be talking to my two music instructors to see if they knew it.

This is too good to hide in the original thread. I trust y'all don't mind if I make it more discoverable.

 

[fluteypiccolosax]

i used to play trumpet before sax, so during the time i played both i would sight transpose my trumpet music on sax, it was easy after practicing it a little.

 

[SOTSDO]

I'm impressed that this is so unknown by hoi polloi, especially as someone with as little formal musical training as moi. Perhaps I have more on the ball that I have realized.

There can be problems, however, even with such a simple method. One is register. You are already flirting with the potential of transposing into the wrong register (octave) when you do the register key trick.

When you start avoiding the break problems (where it's no longer a simple hand position for hand position correspondence), you may choose to shift into another register (simply to avoid having a clarinet A being equivalent to a saxophone E. The best way to avoid this is to practice a bit with others (playing an Eb part on the clarinet).

With the break problem, I usually can run through G and A (including F# and G#) without getting confused. Once I make the jump to the B in the staff, I am back on familiar ground, as the "long" B on the clarinet is equivalent to E on the sax.

(The alternative fingerings, even though they don't use the "pure" clarinet fingerings upon which this is based, still follow the "rule". You just have to make the mental adjustment that equates (for example) a side C played with the trill keys and the thumb and first finger with the same note (C in the middle of the staff), and make the transposition (in this case to the written F in the Eb part).

It is a bit confusing to talk about it, however...

I should also add that I use a similar "trick" to remember bass clef notes when playing the bassoon. There, the secret is to think of the bassoon range as running from "three and four fingers down" to "open" as on the clarinet.

Then, the Bb (which is perversely located one line down on the bass staff) is the the same relative location as the Bb below the staff on the clarinet. The next octave works more or less the same, and the "extension" of the horn (which involves the left and right thumbs for the most part) is easy enough to puzzle out with a little thought.

It's a very rough and ready method, but it works well enough for me, which is all that matters.

 

[Razzy]

You could alternatively just use the opposite direction method for transposing from any instrument to any other instrument. This way your skill is on a higher plane and can apply to other transpositions between all sorts of woodwinds in the future.

What you do is... if the part is Eb to Bb, you go the opposite way when reading. So instead of reading written Eb and playing Bb, read a Bb and play an Eb. Same for reading a C part on Bb tenor: go a major 2nd in the opposite direction (in this case, up) and boo-yea.

It might be a little harder to learn than the trick mentioned above but it's a much more universal principle and doesn't fuss around with your registers with the exception of octaves in some cases. Technically you should add another octave for the tenor transposition but for most practical purposes you can simply read melodies in the octave that sounds best on the instrument.

 

[Clarinetdude108]

razzy, you lost me with that one

 

[SOTSDO]

This is a "step above" the process that I think that I am using. Being a long time bass clarinet player (and a soprano horn player for almost as long), I can "think through" such concepts far better when they are mechanically related. Since the only difference is the missing register key (at the early level), it's a lot easier to work through than note names and their correspondence.

From the reception that this little trick has received over the years, it appears that I'm not alone in this regard. And, for those of us who are "up in years" (I'm pushing sixty these days), new concepts are always harder to absorb. Using something that is habituated (i.e., pounded into the hind brain through many years of practice starting early) is always going to work better for old folks than is some "non-mnenoic" method.

This habituation theory was best seen in an old James Burke television program. (He's the Brit who put together the Connections series back in the 1980's.) In the program dealing with the human brain, he illustrated how the "hind brain" takes over various "lower level" activities as long as they are acquired early on. Hooked up to an electroenchepilograph - er, a "brain wave" machine, he showed us what happened when a novice tried to play guitar: in that case, the activity in the brain was centered in the frontal lobes. Then he did the same thing, only talking while playing. In that case, his hind brain was dealing with the "housekeeping" activity of guitar playing while his frontal lobes were dealing with the narration.

While not privy to all that went on with that program, I do know that I can play some instruments (those of long, long acquaintance, like the bass clarinet), performing on them musically the whole while, and yet have the spare mental processing capacity to think about something else completely different (like lunch or bill paying), all without any misstep. In contrast, I try to do the same thing on bassoon, I collapse into a mental wreck, and doing neither activity well in the bargain.

Over the years, I've picked up just enough musical theory to be a danger to myself, and thinking in intervals just hasn't worked - for me. That's not to say that it won't work for others, just that this offers an alternate method for those not up to the mental gymnastics for the "normal" way of doing it.

(And, for the record, I use the classic "read the bottom of the notes" method for A to Bb transposition, and the not-so-classical "set the interval at the start of the phrase and then play the tune" when making the C to Bb jump. Of course, the first is of dubious utility, since I've owned an excellent A clarinet for about thirty years. The second still comes in handy, although it was last used some seven years ago.)

The Stubbins book covers all of these, plus a lot more, In my eyes, it's almost as useful as the Rendall book, but not up to the level of the Kroll book when it comes to clarinet playing, history, and techniques. By way of comparison, I prefer all of these to the book by Pino.

 

[bari_sax_diva]

Terry, I discovered your method quite by accident and realized I'd stumbled on to something really useful. Months later, Jack Nimitz was showing me a few of his tricks and mentioned it. Kinda made me feel like I actually knew what I was doing.

 

[Razzy]

razzy, you lost me with that one

A lot of people struggle with the concept in the beginning; perhaps I'm not the best at presenting information. It's quite simple once you break it down properly. I'll try again

Basically the idea is that when transposing, in any fashion, from any instrument to any other instrument, you start out figuring out the key of the music, and the key of the instrument you are playing. The most common example on this forum would likely be for tenor sax when reading concert pitch music. So you have,

Written music = C
Instrument = Bb

C to Bb is a whole step down. To play the music on your Bb instrument properly, you play the part a whole step up. Thus, the "opposite direction" method, or whatever you'd like to call it.

In the case of the poster here, the parts are in Bb and he's playing an Eb instrument. Bb to Eb is a 4th up, so to hit the right notes you play the part a 4th down (or, since his instrument is lower, a 4th down and then an octave higher, so a 5th up).

The method sounds very intervalic at first and like it requires a lot of conscious thought, but the process is actually incredibly spatial in the long run. Reading music in the beginning works the same way: at first, the process is recognizing which note names match which fingerings. Then this becomes second nature, and the process is completely spatial based on experience gained with the distance relationships involved. Transposition works in the same way.

The "can't teach an old dog new tricks" idea was proposed above and I suppose that would apply sometimes. My advice is more for a player who might find himself playing a lot of different woodwinds in different keys who wants a more longterm solution to transposing as a concept rather than a one-shot trick. Just an alternative suggestion and ya know, differ'nt strokes for differ'nt folks

 

[clarnut]

I discovered the Eb to Bb transformation while working with my grandson with him on sax and I on clarinet.

When working with young sax players and I am on my clarinet, I just essentially think sax fingerings on clarinet, which basically serves the same purpose. ie- when I see alto sax G, I finger sax G (low C on clarinet) which just happens to be a concert Bb-same pitch on both instruments. I work from there. After a bit it all falls into place.

One transposition that can also work is to imagine that you are reading bass clef and transposing a C part. ie- second line G :line2: becomes bass clef Bb, which you transpose up a step into C. This can take a bit more mental gymnastics as well as thinking some key signatures. Which for some may be tougher. :?

 

[SOTSDO]

The bass clef trick works pretty well, and once you are lapped into what key the piece is in, the accidentals tend to "fall into place" on their own.

I picked the theory on this up somewhere, but never had to use it until playing with an orchestra in an outdoor amphitheater and doing the 1812 Overture. They were short on contrabasses and 'cellos, so (rather than sit the piece out) I just filled in during the tutti portions with the baritone sax. By the tenth bar or so, the combination of the bass clef notes as a mnemonic and the "flow" of the piece had me in lock step with the low strings.

This is a particularly valuable trick for contra-alto clarinet players to pick up early and to practice often...

 

[km]

I can't see that there are any similar tricks for transposing on the fly between Bb & Eb saxes - but any suggestions?

km

 

[SOTSDO]

Nope. It only works with the clarinet of the different key (i.e., Eb alto to Bb soprano, Bb tenor to Eb alto clarinet), as it is dependent on the "break offset" caused by the cylindrical bore of the clarinet.

Other than the clarinets (and perhaps near relatives like the taragoto), everything else in the woodwind world is set up to jump to the octave when a vent is opened.

There is one other trick here, although I hesitate to mention it in mixed company. In Great Britain, military baritone horn or euphonium players are taught to play their horns as anyone would be anywhere else, but they are taught different names for the notes on their horns, and to read other parts as if they were played on the appropriate tuba, trombone, or whatever. That is to say, instead of playing a Bb from music pitched in Bb (or whatever key they are pitched in), they read a C and are taught the corresponding actual pitch fingering as if it played a C. This was discussed at some length in the Forsyth book titled Orchestration, and there apparently was a very good reason for doing it.

Moving from the brass (with which I am not all that familiar) to the clarinet family, the equivalent would be giving a player an A clarinet, and then having them read a written Eb on a Bb pitch part on the clarinet as an E. As military music is not notorious for shifting to extreme keys, you could probably get through this easy enough. Still, it's not something I'd like to do once I had been taught the schema of the various instruments, but if all you were going to play was that one horn, it would work well enough.

 

[clarnut]

I can't see that there are any similar tricks for transposing on the fly between Bb & Eb saxes - but any suggestions?

km

If you were reading Eb parts on a Bb horn, you could do the trick I mentioned. Pretend it is actually bass cleff and then transpose up a step. Many years ago a teacher of mine told me that he used to do this to transpose in big bands when they did the sax sections as a "tenor band" in the time when this was popular. I believe he did 2nd also parts on tenor.