[John S]

I'm having a hard time improvising/ transposing on the fly. I recently discovered the Nashville Number system and have been using it while playing a tin whistle. It works well, as whistles are in keys, so once you pull out the right whistle, you can just work from the cord numbers to find all of the notes. You don't need note/cord letters for anything after that.

It falls apart, for me anyway, when I pick up my tenor sax. Since it's chromatic, I get more than the seven notes of a major scale. Now, a IV cord doesn't have the 4th note up (chomatically) as the root. This sends me back to letter names.

I don't know if I am going to find what I am looking for, learning to play by numbers rather than letters. Obviously theory isn't my strong suit, and the musicians I am trying to play with "don't do dots", so no one has written music. Cord names in C, or the key of a song and the relative cord numbers is all I get.

I did get a C sax, but it is like a large alto, not a small tenor, so I don't really like how it sounds. Fewer transposing mistakes, though!

Any tips or tricks to get me past this road block would be appreciated...


John

 

[Pete Thomas]

Any tips or tricks to get me past this road block would be appreciated...

Unless I'm misunderstanding, you just need , above all, to learn your major scales. (minor also)

When you know the major scales, then you can use the numbers, which IMO is a very good way to go.

 

[lydian]

No matter what you do, you can't get away from the letter names entirely. Even with NNS, the leader is going to call tunes in a certain key using a letter. You also learned all your fingerings on sax using letters, I assume. However, knowing all your scales, if a tune is called in G (your A on tenor), you simply set A to 1, B to 2, C# to 3, etc., in your mind and remember that though the tune. I'd probably write out some sort of cheat sheet with all the possible combinations until you get it memorized.

Many improvisers on sax use a similar Roman Numeral system. So, if we know the "one" ( I ) is A for example. We know all the other notes in that key by number, i.e., III is C#. It also helps immensely to memorize the circle of 5ths so you know all the flats and sharps in each key.

As you probably already know, before you apply the numbers to the current key, you have to transpose up a step for tenor sax, or down a step and a half for alto.

Unfortunately, you've got a lot of work to do. But it will eventually click. You've arrived when you can instantly convert numbers to letters and back in any key instantly without doing any mental calculations.

 

[Arundo Donax]

... You've arrived when you can instantly convert numbers to letters and back in any key instantly without doing any mental calculations.

I'm wondering whether that occurs after the proverbial 10,000 hours required for mastery in a discipline.

But at 40 hours of practice per day, that's only 250 days.

 

[1saxman]

This is why I was so unbelievably lucky to have an older mentor when I was 16, who told me about chords and stressed their importance. Being in bands with guitar and keyboard players, I learned the chords to every song and practiced arpeggios on them. Yes, most musical groups use the 'Nashville' method of playing a song based on the position of each chord on the scale of the song's key - like, with a song in C, it might start on C, the I. The second chord might be F, the IV, and the final chord might be G, the V. This is a simple rock/country pattern called 'I, IV, V' and could begin with a 'V, IV, I rundown' This way, when a singer says 'I have to take it down a notch' all the numbers apply to the new key. Then you have the bridge (chorus) which is usually in a different key (like the VI of II or something).
Where you make your mistake is, for some reason, trying to apply this to every note of the melody. This can be done but it would be laborious and pointless. When you know your chords, the scale for that chord comes easily and typically falls under your fingers. When you combine chords, scales and chromatics, you have music.
To improvise, which by definition is always 'on the fly', you must know the structure of the music you are playing. An old trick is to start out practicing the melody, then by degrees, jazz it up. Do this for as long as it takes to get your confidence before you start thinking about really taking off.
At the same time, you have to learn where every concert note is on your horn. For tenor, its just one step up. Piano C is your D and so forth. So, if the first chord is C, you play a D arpeggio. If the second chord is E (the III, and your F#) you play the arpeggio for that. Using these arpeggios along with their scales and chromatics for passing tones and figures, you begin to construct some riffs based on the melody. Its easy to see from there how you begin to think of new little melodies that fit the chords - now you're improvising.
Basically if you're not going to write the melody (head) out in notation, you simply have to know it.

 

[JL]

When you know the major scales, then you can use the numbers, which IMO is a very good way to go.

+1.

And all the other responses are right on as well. But if you don't know those 12 maj scales, you have no frame of reference for numbering the notes or chords. For ex, the "4" (or "IV" if a chord) in the key of C is an F, the "4" the key of E is an A, the "4" in the key of F# is B, the "3" in the key of A is C#, the "5" in the key of Db is Ab, and so on.

John S, I'm assuming that by 'cord' you mean chord.

Anyway good question, and yes the number system is a great way to go, even when you know the note names (which is also pretty important), especially for transposing, but also for 'seeing' various relationships between notes/chords.

 

[whamptoncourt]

Everything above is correct, but staying within the bounds of playing specific chord tones. 1saxman hints at the melodic in talking about doing melodic variations. I'd take that a bit further and say that the best improvisations are melodic and not mechanical. If you can't hear a melodic line it may be that playing by the numbers (like painting by the numbers) may be as good as it gets. Aim low and you'll achieve. If you want to aim higher then try playing melodically and do it in all keys, (which gets you around your other problem).

Improvisation is composing on the fly. If all you're doing is playing a bunch of chord tones and trying to do it quickly that's not very entertaining or listenable for others. Again, aim at where you want to go , and within your musical (talent) limits. Can you sing alternate lines that sound convincing? If so then it's a matter of matching your horn to what you hear in your head. Make the horn your voice (it will take years).

If you have players you admire then consider what you are hearing. Is it just a bunch of impressive finger exercises or something more that communicates emotionally or musically?

There is certainly no harm in learning various types of notation and chart systems, transposing what you read, etc. However we are...or become what we practice. If you're just wanting to wiggle your fingers quickly playing riffs and arpeggios to the right chord, then that's not much of a musical ambition. The thing that makes a musician is your unique voice, not cut and paste exercises.

 

[ZenBen]

What's the Nashville Number System?